[Mb-civic] ...

[Lyle K'ang]

Ian,

My thoughts and some references are included below-however, it is rather lengthy but of good cheer. You might even laugh a time or two.

Paul was not either quoting Jesus  or referencing Jesus' teachings...else he would have said so. Paul, was founding a church.  Jesus was not founding a church but was giving new light and insight into how man could achieve the highest spiritual level of consciousness and how man should treat other men.
Jesus was the first "Bleeding Heart Liberal" and ALL  of his 
teachings were based on love and growth in love and loving all of mankind.

The problem Christians...especially fundamentalist extremist Christians have is the contradictions between  the Old Testament view of a Vengeful God and the New Testament ( which is supposedly based on Jesus teachings.) and Jesus who preached love and compassion and understanding.   These two parts of the bible are often in conflict with one another.  Because of this conflict many "christians" pick and choose from the bible those things which support their views or biasis one way or another in the secular world.   That is the problem with fundamentalist extremists.  On the question of Marriage they only have the Old Testament to quote ( Unless they want to interpret Paul as the voice of Jesus and thus God...which I cannot do.)

(While I do not feel that you, personally, are a Fundamentalist Extremist it would appear that you also fall into that trap of picking and choosing.  Are you a literalist or are you an interpreter of the Bible?}

It is interesting that when they define marriage according to the old testament there are many instances of marriage according to the old testament which are downright abhorrent ( and homosexuality is not the most abhorrent), in my opinion:

Here is an example:
"Pray for the President as he works with lawmakers to codify marriage as 
being between one man and one woman. Pray that biblical principles will be honored by lawmakers, and that marriage will be strengthened."
PRESIDENTIAL PRAYER
REQUESTS FOR
JANUARY 29, 2004
http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/?id=922

IN DEFENSE OF BIBLICAL MARRIAGE
The Presidential Prayer Team has urged us to: "Pray for the President as 
he seeks wisdom on how to legally codify the definition of marriage. Pray that it will be according to biblical principles. With many forces insisting on variant definitions of marriage, pray that God's Word and His standards will be honored by our government." (end of prayer request)

Now, based on the above Prayer Request...."Pray according to biblical
principles"...would mean, since they take the bible literally, that ALL
Biblical Principles should also be codified into law as suggested below:

Any good religious person believes prayer should be balanced by action. So here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals, is a proposed Constitutional Amendment codifying marriage entirely on biblical principles:

Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women.(Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5.)
Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron11:21)
A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed (Deut 22:13-21)
Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden.(Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any state, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce.(Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)
In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it is 
required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36) (Original author unknown.)

THE TOP 14 BIBLICAL WAYS TO ACQUIRE A WIFE (author unknown)
Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she's yours. (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)
Find a prostitute and marry her. (Hosea 1:1-3)
Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock. (Moses-- Exodus 2:16-21)
Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. (Boaz -- Ruth 4:5-10)
Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one and carry her off to be your wife. (Benjaminites -- Judges 21:19-25)
Have God create a wife for you while you sleep. Note: this will cost you. (Adam-- Genesis 2:19-24)
Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman's hand in marriage. Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That's right. Fourteen years of toil for a wife. (Jacob -- Genesis 29:15-30)
Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law's enemies and get his
daughter for a wife. (David -- 1 Samuel 18:27)
Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you'll definitely find someone. (It's all relative, of course.) (Cain --Genesis 4:16-17)
Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest. (Xerxes or Ahasuerus -- Esther 2:3-4)
When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents, "I have seen a ...woman; now get her for me." If your parents question your decision, simply say, "Get her for me. She's the one for me." (Samson -- Judges 14:1-3)
Kill any husband and take HIS wife (Prepare to lose four sons, though). (David-- 2 Samuel 11)
Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It's not just a good idea; it's the law.) (Onana and Boaz -- Deuteronomy or Leviticus, example in Ruth)
Don't be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. (Solomon -- 1Kings
11:1-3)
BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS ON MARRIAGE
He who finds a wife finds a good thing. (Proverbs 18:22)
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. (1 Corinthians 7:1)
A man shall marry his brother’s widow. (Deuteronomy 25:5)
A marriage between a man and his brother’s widow is unclean. (Leviticus 20:21)
It is better to be unmarried and a virgin, and live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. (Paul -- 1 Corinthians 7:32-35)
There is nowhere in the bible that clearly states "one man and one 
woman" or "monogamy" or any words to that effect, but abstinence and polygamy are plentiful.
- Many thanks to John B. Hodges"
_______________________________________________________________________-
Your discussion of Jesus' admonition to the adultress to "Go and sin no 
more" is Your interpretation of what he meant.  You say that he was trying to save her soul and give her a moral compass...that may or may not be the case...since any discussion would lend itself to our individual interpretations.  I would say that since he taught love and compassion that his admonition to her was good advice since the codified laws of the time would require that she be killed if she were caught again and he would not want her suffer again.
The "sin" was not a law of God it was a secular law based on and  
encoded in the religious practices in Judaism at that time.

You say also that since adultry was punishable by death then it follows that homosexuality must have been a sin also since it was punishable by death. 
Interesting.
 1. Christ did not himself speak to the issue of homosexuality and you are perhaps stretching rather obliquely to put that thought or concept in his teachings.
 2.  Were there not other transgressions of secular laws at the time that were punishable by death....Remember Jesus was living and teaching at a time when the people were under Judaic Law and Roman Law.?  If you answer Yes?  What were some of these transgressions and were they all considered "sins" or merely transgressions of the secular law?  Also were male adulterers also punished by "death"...or was it only women?   If it was only women why was it ( by your logic) a Sin for women, but not for men? Are you mixing up God's law with Man's Law...ie Religious vs. Secular Law?

THIS ARTICLE MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU:

http://www.carmical.net/articles/moses.html
"Many Christians are perplexed when they confront the issue of the Mosaic Law.
How binding is the Law on the Christian? Some have said that Jesus abolished the Law of Moses. I would have to disagree, based on the following passage spoken by Jesus Himself:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)

Some have suggested that by "fulfil," Jesus meant "abolish." 
Indeed, "abolish" is one meaning of "fulfil," but it is also the only meaning of "destroy." So if He had meant "abolish," He might as well have said, "I am not come to abolish, but to abolish." We can assume, therefore, that Jesus meant, "to  develop the full potentialities of" when He said "fulfil."

So why then do Christians not observe the Mosaic Law? The answer is that they do observe parts, but not all of it. Some parts of the Law were meant to be temporary, while others were intended to be permanent. This is seen in the fact that before Moses, the ancient Jews were not bound to the ritual commands (except circumcision). If the Mosaic Law was not meant to be temporary, then either God changes or the God of the righteous men and women before Moses was a different god. But this is absurd. We know that the God of Abraham was the God of Moses, and that He is our God today. The coming of Christ made parts of the Mosaic law unnecessary.

In order to understand this, we must realize that the Law is made up of three parts: ceremonial, civil, and moral.

The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship. Since its primary purpose was to point to the coming Savior, Jesus made it unnecessary. He did not abolish it, in the sense of destroying it; He fulfilled it. Nowhere do we read that Jesus thought that the ceremonial law was wrong. The principles behind the ceremonial law are still applicable to us today, that is, the principles of worshipping and serving a holy God.

The civil law prescribed rules for the Israelites' daily living. These laws separated the Jews from the Gentiles, and gave the Gentiles the example of how a holy people should live. Since much was given to the Jews, much was expected.
But God gave a new covenant in Christ, and there is now no distinction to be made between Jew and Gentile. We are still to follow the requirements of this law as God's people, but the punishments are not for any nation to impose on its people, because we are no longer separated by nations but by God's grace (Christians and non-Christians).

The moral law is basically the Ten Commandments. We are still bound by these laws, not for salvation, but to live a holy life. Jesus not only desired that His followers adhere to these commandments, He wished that they would go above and beyond them. He said, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..." He desired not only an outward observance of these laws, but an inward observance as well.

So we see that the parts of the Law that have been rendered obsolete are those that contain ordinances. An ordinance is either a memorial of something that has already passed or a type of something in the future. The Old Testament laws containing ordinances were not meant to be permanent. There are no ordinances in the Ten Commandment Law.

Now, we must remember that following rules and regulations will not get us into heaven. It is only through the blood of Jesus that we can see heaven. But if we love Him, we will keep His commandments." (end of article)

Ian, I would appreciate your thoughts regarding the above opinions.


Lyle K'ang,
~~ Enterprise Insights: Tools for a Brighter Tomorrow ~~
http://www.SiloManagement.com
~~ Information, Imagination & Musings ~~ 
http://www.Lyve-Oasis.com 

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