[Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle

[richard haase]

Ian respectfully though there is something very offense to non christians in
the christian's erroneous belief that the only way to heaven is through
christianity; having been a non christian until the age of 35 i can vouch
for it; in addition to being extremely hateful and offensive, it is in my
subjective judgement patently false and a blasephemy against god ( eg
decreasing the numbers of his flock ); christianity is a true way to god;
but not the only way

of this i am 1000% sure

richard haase in nyc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com>
To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle


> Barbara:
>
> I agree.  However, if you go back over all the myriad e-mails between Lyle
> and myself, you will find an interesting fact: Lyle has consistently
> denigrated, demeaned and maligned my faith - not just the Judeo-Christian
> construct in general, but my own personal belief in it - while, until my
> most recent post, I have never made a single denigrating comment about his
> personal belief system.  Rather, I have spent the time defending my own
> belief against continuous negativity on his part.  Yet despite this(and,
> again, until my most recent post), I believe I conducted myself (on the
> whole) in an amazingly patient manner, despite his continuous demeaning of
> my faith.
>
> Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, and I do not begrudge him that right.
> As the adage goes: I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to
> the death your right to say it.  But this does not mean that I have to
like,
> or even put up with, his negavitity.
>
> As I said, being a Christian does not make one "perfect."  And I never
> claimed to have the patience of a saint.  In this regard, my patience for
> Lyle's smug meanness (the very thing he accuses ME of!) has grown thin,
and
> I reacted.  I believe any one of you would have done the same.  I do not
> apologize for being human.
>
> Peace.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Barbara Siomos" <barbarasiomos38 at webtv.net>
> To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
>
>
> Personally I think that Lyle and Ian both have a right to speak their
> minds as they see fit.... Lyle is NOT trying to win anyone to his side
> or point of view merely expressing himself in a debate as he is entitled
> to do....
>
> peace,
> barbara
> >From: "Ian" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com>
> >To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing?
> >Re: To Lyle
> Al Baraka:
>
> Thank you for your wisdom. Your "dogs and cats" concept does seem
> to have hit the nail on the head. Clearly, Lyle and I are debating at
> cross purposes. It is not simply a matter of neither of us "wooing"
> the other to their side; that is clearly not going to happen.
> However, we are also debating from two antithetical positions re the
> Judeo-Christian Scriptures (independent of whether or not one
> "believes" them). Herein lies at least part - perhaps a good part -
> of why he seems to equate simple "correction" (vis-a-vis what the
> Scriptures actually say - again, independent of whether one believes
> them or not) with "hammering" (his word).
>
> Also, like you, I cannot figure out where he stands: as you note, he
> claims to be an atheist, but believes in angels, and also (at least from
> what I can tell) supports many of the principles of Jesus'
> ministry. And although he can certainly do so without subscribing
> to Jesus' divinity, C.S. Lewis' statement still stands:
>
> "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would
> not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a
> level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the
> Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and
> is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut
> Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you
> can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come
> with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher.
> He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
>
> Lyle subscribes to what many Christians call a "pick and choose"
> spirituality. He has read broadly (as have I), and has chosen which
> aspects of which faiths he feels make sense to him (psychologically,
> emotionally, spiritually). At the same time, he has "rejected"
> anything in those faiths (especially Christianity) that he feels is
> hypocritical, or simply inconsistent. Out of this he has created a
> "personal faith" that he "protects" as "aggressively" as I do mine.
> However, in creating a "pick and choose" spiritual philosophy, he leaves
> himself with no "bottom line" or real "foundation" for his faith: it is
> simply a mish-mash of things he believes to be true (or untrue) of human
> nature and "God" (however he perceives Him).
>
> Many of you may see me as misguided for my extremely devout belief
> in the Judeo-Christian construct (as I understand that construct;
> not as it is practiced by the masses, or taught by the corrupt
> leaders). However, at least there is a "bedrock" upon which I base my
> faith, belief, life principles and day-to-day living. In this
> regard, from my perspective, I find it sad that Lyle does not have such
> a foundation. I am not questioning whether his belief system "works"
> for him or not; clearly it does. It is just that, to my mind, the
> lack of a specific foundation leads to the sort of moral relativism that
> is at least part of the reason why the world is "going to hell in a
> handbasket."
>
> Again, thank you for your wisdom. It is refreshing.
>
> Peace.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Alexander Harper
> To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
> I am almost - but not quite - speechless over these
> exchanges. Intemperate adjectives are being bandied about,
> particularly, I fear, by Lyle, who I am sure has every one's best
> interests at heart, although what is to be achieved by calling Ian
> 'mean', for instance, for the moment escapes me. Actually I do not see
> how their two viewpoints can easily be reconciled as I am not sure that
> they are arguing about the same thing. It is not easy, Lyle, if one is
> discussing dogs (for the sake of argument), if you reply with a polemic
> about cats. I am not sure either, how you can possibly be an atheist. An
> agnostic, maybe, a pantheist, perhaps but not, surely, an atheist. You
> certainly seem to have studied a wide and varied range of beliefs and
> to have derived some understanding and benefit from many of them and you
> seem to be able to see in quite straightforward matters, things, which
> are not immediately visible or obvious to less gifted mortals. In that
> you have the soul of a poet or a real-estate agent. It occurs to me that
> you ought to read about the Albigensian heresy, if you have not already
> done so and/or if you have time. Its adherents, the Cathars, had a very
> singular view of how to become perfect. I am sure that you would find it
> interesting.
> I think I will stop here before I start writing in tongues. It seems to
> be contagious.
> AlBaraka
>
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