[Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
Ian
ialterman at nyc.rr.com
Mon Jan 10 13:13:19 PST 2005
Al Baraka:
Thank you for your wisdom. Your "dogs and cats" concept does seem to have hit the nail on the head. Clearly, Lyle and I are debating at cross purposes. It is not simply a matter of neither of us "wooing" the other to their side; that is clearly not going to happen. However, we are also debating from two antithetical positions re the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (independent of whether or not one "believes" them). Herein lies at least part - perhaps a good part - of why he seems to equate simple "correction" (vis-a-vis what the Scriptures actually say - again, independent of whether one believes them or not) with "hammering" (his word).
Also, like you, I cannot figure out where he stands: as you note, he claims to be an atheist, but believes in angels, and also (at least from what I can tell) supports many of the principles of Jesus' ministry. And although he can certainly do so without subscribing to Jesus' divinity, C.S. Lewis' statement still stands:
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
Lyle subscribes to what many Christians call a "pick and choose" spirituality. He has read broadly (as have I), and has chosen which aspects of which faiths he feels make sense to him (psychologically, emotionally, spiritually). At the same time, he has "rejected" anything in those faiths (especially Christianity) that he feels is hypocritical, or simply inconsistent. Out of this he has created a "personal faith" that he "protects" as "aggressively" as I do mine. However, in creating a "pick and choose" spiritual philosophy, he leaves himself with no "bottom line" or real "foundation" for his faith: it is simply a mish-mash of things he believes to be true (or untrue) of human nature and "God" (however he perceives Him).
Many of you may see me as misguided for my extremely devout belief in the Judeo-Christian construct (as I understand that construct; not as it is practiced by the masses, or taught by the corrupt leaders). However, at least there is a "bedrock" upon which I base my faith, belief, life principles and day-to-day living. In this regard, from my perspective, I find it sad that Lyle does not have such a foundation. I am not questioning whether his belief system "works" for him or not; clearly it does. It is just that, to my mind, the lack of a specific foundation leads to the sort of moral relativism that is at least part of the reason why the world is "going to hell in a handbasket."
Again, thank you for your wisdom. It is refreshing.
Peace.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander Harper
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
I am almost - but not quite - speechless over these exchanges. Intemperate adjectives are being bandied about, particularly, I fear, by Lyle, who I am sure has every one's best interests at heart, although what is to be achieved by calling Ian 'mean', for instance, for the moment escapes me. Actually I do not see how their two viewpoints can easily be reconciled as I am not sure that they are arguing about the same thing. It is not easy, Lyle, if one is discussing dogs (for the sake of argument), if you reply with a polemic about cats. I am not sure either, how you can possibly be an atheist. An agnostic, maybe, a pantheist, perhaps but not, surely, an atheist. You certainly seem to have studied a wide and varied range of beliefs and to have derived some understanding and benefit from many of them and you seem to be able to see in quite straightforward matters, things, which are not immediately visible or obvious to less gifted mortals. In that you have the soul of a poet or a real-estate agent. It occurs to me that you ought to read about the Albigensian heresy, if you have not already done so and/or if you have time. Its adherents, the Cathars, had a very singular view of how to become perfect. I am sure that you would find it interesting.
I think I will stop here before I start writing in tongues. It seems to be contagious.
AlBaraka
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard haase"
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 05:48:37 -0500
youre an atheist who believes in bright angels lyle?
thats a little unusual
lol
----- Original Message -----
From: Lyle K'ang
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:22 AM
Subject: [Mb-civic] Self-Agrandizing? Re: To Lyle
Tiny Bubbles in the Wine...Makes me happy, makes me feel fine...
Hey what's up guys...as an aethist I believe in many things spiritual but not necessarily a Being or a God like Person. I do know however, that there exists an Energy, a Form, a Discipline and/or a Higher Order.
I do not know if there is a GOD, whether SHE or HE or FORM has GENDER. I personally doubt it though.
I do believe that there is a Counsel of Judges, EVIL and BRIGHT angels as well.
I wish I could be more specific to help you out Ian, but I just have not had a chance nor been given free passage to find out and report back.
1,000,000,000 people you say are going upward-why upward? Where are they going too? Why do you think these 'saved' people are going, when they on earth right now, are very mean like you and not very humble even if you were 100% correct-which by the way, you are most definetly not.
I suppose some of us have the inside tract-pretty nice to be sitting on the right hand of him-eh?
I forget that scripture-as a matter of fact, many people don't even know the scriptures, especially those that perished in the tsunami. I wonder if you think they're going to heaven or not? Probably not -eh? I mean they are not even Christians. Someone told me once that they would get a chance in Heaven to choose Christianity and be saved. WOW! That sounds just like a used car salesman here on earth.
If I know the scriptures real good, does that mean I get a ticket to stand in line, next to you for the rapture? What if I'm a dirty hobo?I'm not making fun here -I'm saying you are sounding like YOU know there's a God right behind that Comet-so let's all take this drug and we'll all meet in heaven. Sounds kinda far-fetched Ian.
I'm still waiting for you to come around and be reality driven instead of telling my friends that they are self-agrandizing, and speaking to me as if I'm a lunatic or heretic. This is not 450 A.D. not the 15th Century-it's going on the 21st last I checked, and don't think I'm going to be tortured by the high Christian priests either.
One last thing-The last time I checked, Christ was not coming because people are immoral towards one another and others pretend they are morally clean when they are not. These people pretend they are followers of Christ and many of them are not nice people. If he came then he would have to take away our free will-he won't do that Ian-that's not the Christ I know.
You use to sound nice-maybe you can be nice again to us all-but I suppose you have a lot of stress on you because it seems you have to be out there proving something that's non-provable.
Why don't you be content with who you are and what you know-just like a Buddha and meditate on the Universe-I do this too-even aetheists meditate like Buddhas. Buddhas don't worship Buddha you know-that's a form of idolatry just as worshipping Jesus Christ is.
Many well-formed and ancient religions worship the essence of the Spirit. Oh well, forgive me for caring...Ian, don't forget to answer my references and questions on scripture quotation I gave you over three weeks ago.
Lyle K'ang,
~~Enterprise Insights: Advanced Tools for Business Communications!~~
http://www.SiloManagement.com
~~Information, Imagination & Musings~~
http://www.Lyve-Oasis.com
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please dont call me self aggrandizing and then say peace
not at all
i have a profound problem with certain aspects of organized christianity claiming a monopoly on god
and when you were talking about abjuring the scriptures etc
it just came across as sarcasm
but please dont insult me
as that was not my motivation at all
( and aggrandizing how? )
what would i get out of it?
respectfully i dont find your comments in this instance make much sense
peace to you too
richard haase
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] To Lyle
richard:
If you will note, I deliberately invited Lyle (and, by extension, anyone else, including you) to "feel free to ignore or disdain [the Judeo-Christian] Scripture." Thus, your comments are entirely unnecessary, except for self-aggrandizing purposes.
Peace.
----- Original Message -----
From: richard haase
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] To Lyle
Ian the christian scriptures are not the only ones
and not the only ones that are true
christians do not have a monopoly on god
and in my opinion
that is the great blasphemy of organized christianity
christianity is a true and just path to god
but there are others
including the virtuous atheism
there is no doubt in my mind that a virtuous atheist
goes to heaven
peace
richard haase in nyc
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian
To: Civic
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: [Mb-civic] To Lyle
Lyle:
Blessings and Peace.
Simply for the record, I think I know where you came up with the "150,000" number. If so, you are mixing things up.
Revelation states that, just after the "church" is Raptured (leaving no "Christians" on earth), 144,000 people (not 150,000) - 12,000 from each of the 12 original tribes of Israel - will become "super-evangelists," and will bring as many or more people "to Christ" during the "end times" (i.e., the last seven years) than believed in Christ prior to the Rapture - perhaps 1,000,000,000 or more.
Feel free to ignore or disdain Scripture. But when you do cite it, please try to do so correctly.
Peace.
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