[Mb-civic] kyle i think you and me should take on cheeseburger andbaker in a tag match

Sun Oct 31 16:48:43 PST 2004

Kyle:

Blessings and Peace.  I just wanted to respond briefly to a couple of your comments.

First, you say: "To call someone wrong about speaking out on dark shadows, which I believe Michael Butler spoke of, and to say it is not religion that causes these dark shadows, is basically infantile in spiritual matters."

You misunderstand.  I was not calling Michael "wrong" for "speaking out on dark shadows."  I was pointing out that it is historically inaccurate to claim (as Michael seemed to be doing) that those dark shadows were "created" by organized religion.  After all, would you seriously claim that "evil," "evil" people, "dark shadows," etc. did not predate organized religion?  As I noted, organized religion bears its responsibility for not fighting those shadows, and perhaps even for exacerbating them.  But organized religion did not create those shadows.  Any claim to the contrary is historically insupportable.

You mention the Crusades, noting that "Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by Christians!"  Sadly, any faith/religion can be "hijacked" by individuals or groups and, equally sadly, there are too many "believers" all too willing to follow these corrupt individuals or groups.  This has, again sadly, been true of all faiths/religions (or at least the overwhelming majority of them) since their inceptions.  We see this right now not only vis-a-vis the so-called "Christian Right" and the "evangelical movement," but even moreso in Islam, where a handful of corrupted mullahs (and others, like OBL) have "hijacked" Islam by interpreting it through a narrow, radical fundamentalist view.

That said, it should be pointed out that the New Testament is the only underlying "religious" text of any of the "major" religions that has not one word suggesting violence against others.  The Old Testament has plenty of violence - both historical and suggested in its teaching (stoning, etc.), as does the Qur'an (though not nearly so much as the media et al are leading us to believe).

Indeed, one of the major aspects of Jesus' ministry was to point out that it was the "spirit" of the law that was important, not the "letter" of the law - including all those Old Testament admonitions to stone people to death, etc.  We  all - believers and not - know the story of the townspeople who were about to stone an adultress to death, and Jesus' comment that "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

The underlying precepts of Christianity - i.e., those lived, taught and preached by Jesus - are love, peace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service.  True, it is well nigh impossible to live up to these virtues, even basically, much less moment to moment.  And true also that there are  individuals and small groups who have taken Scripture out of context to support violence (e.g., the Crusades, Inquisition, etc.), and too many who have been misguided enough to follow them.  And true again that there are still those who take Scripture out of context (e.g., the so-called "Christian Right," which, like the Moral Majority before it, is neither) to support narrow, unloving, unforgiving and, ultimately, un-Christian viewpoints.

However, none of this negates the intrinsic value - the essential (in its literal term "essence of") goodness, even "correctness" (in many instances) - of Christianity in its "primitive" form (i.e, prior to being bastardized and corrupted by "organized religion"), and the values - both spiritual/moral and temporal/practical - it teaches, and their applicability to everyday life.

Finally, as you well know, I am not your "average" Christian: I have been called (by my mentoring ministers) a "true" Christian: i.e., I do not follow the "church," or the disciples (though they have their place), or the apostles (though they have their place), or even Paul (though he has his place).  I practice, preach and teach what Jesus did and said.  After all, it seems a matter of obvious logic and common sense that if someone is going to call themselves a "Christ"-ian, the first, most important aspect is that they truly "follow" Christ by living a "Christ-like" life.

I would certainly agree with you that the vast majority of people who call themselves "Christians" would not know real "Christ"-ianity if it bit them in the ear; that they follow a "religion" rather than a "faith," and that that "religion" was, as you infer, largely "created" by "men" - some (if not many) of whom were corrupted by power from the earliest days of the "compiling" of the New Testament.

I accept that I may be one in a million (or more...).  However, that said, my approach to misguided Christians - to try to show them (by example, through Scripture, etc.) that they have been misled by "organized religion," and that they are not actually practicing "Christ"-ianity, and to help them live a truly Christ-like life - will have (indeed, I would wager, has had) more effect on such people than all the vitriol, vituperation, condemnation, negativity and venom that many on this board express.

Indeed, even if some (or even much) of that vitriol, etc. is warranted - i.e., even if organized religion deserves whatever harsh words it gets - all the negativity, vitriol, etc. expressed here does absolutely nothing to contribute to any form of helpful dialogue, and in fact only serves to hinder it.

Peace.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lyle K'ang 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] kyle i think you and me should take on cheeseburger andbaker in a tag match

  Richard Hasse,

  This is for you-I write to you and if others find it offensive, they too have many steps to climb.

  Hey guy! Guess what-I haven't paid much attention to any of you lately. I'm on the street corners and phone banks doing my thing for Kerry. 

  Brief action:
  I did watch the one-sided discussion about TRUTH on Religion by our own Masters. I wonder what you guys are really doing for the American Fascist Movement now in full bloom? Who follows it? Some of you guys sound just like real underground infiltrators-pretty soon, we'll start calling you followers of Hitlerism-graduating beyond Mussolinism and his favorite toy of governmental bedding down with sloppy corporate sex partners.

  People that just sit around and pretend they're important by agreeing with everybody are a dime a dozen-buddy!

  Just recently on this board there was discussion about a special venue with a religious flare. I popped in just briefly to 'see' what my good friend Ian was up too.

  Frankly, I was dissapointed in the rhetoric on the way the religion discussion grew which later formulated into nothing. The conclusion was obvious and short-sighted as well. Sorry-You Guys are excluding experience from a belief system.
  I was hoping for so much more-I did think that for a moment the participants would have allowed their conscious thought to articulate a more poignant stance than the one taken-it was frankly old fashioned, tired and simply based on a faith system that has not proven much if anything, throughout history.

  Anybody, with the right tools can raise the vibratory level to heal a person. Healing has no boundaries, nor religious connotations. Religion is man made. Spirit is free! Spirit is the healer not a religion! To call someone wrong about speaking out on dark shadows, which I believe Michael Butler spoke of and to say it is not religion that causes these dark shadows, is basically, infintile in spiritual matters.

  Religion is a belief system and not immune to darkness...Crusades?! Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by Christians! What are Christians anyway??? Not very good-never have been, never will. I believe the White Man-will very soon have a blood debt to pay, ALL his own! 

  But side-stepping history momentarily, all peoples on this planet have condemned his own kind with the exception, I believe, the Hopi Indians, and others I'm not aware of. Frankly, what say you? Do you know who else has not condemned their own kind?

  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spread pearls at the feet of swine. I've been there, I've seen evidence of what I speak off and I am not repeating for sake of definition, about what Jesus and your religion is supposed to be like.

  Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. How are we [you] treating the Palestinians today?
  Hunk-Dory? So-so! Let's be like the Christian fundamentalists, keep the jews around because without them The Last Battle of Armagedeon just won't be, will it? OK-I'm being a bit boring I know.

  There are dark shadows that eminate from the Bishop, the Cardinals, the Priests, The present President of the U.S., ad nauseum for goodness sake! Christianity has been a dead movement for so long now. Ignorance is the new religion! If Jesus or ???? favored a single man-made religion, what's up with that anyway? When the truth comes out of the Bible and speaks of confounded tongues of the world, there is still no evidence that Christianity is a favored religion, except through zealots! 

  Too many scales over the eyes keeps one from experiencing one's own life!

  The hopes that people can shed their scales of ignorance and self importance to sensitize themselves to others and their past journeys, is to learn real truth! I can only say that if we were reborn a hundred times more-I would still hold true to the things I have witnessed, and know for a surety-that many prophets are called by different names and are throughout the world now!

  To talk of shallow, misguided hopes about a Jesus (their were many named Jesus), that may come back is giving up on your own powers to be healers unto your own nation. It's as though you will your mind to be lazy!

  Good Luck! Go For IT!

  Lyle K'ang
  Enterprise Insights: 
  SiloManagement Is The Death Knell of Business...
  http://www.SiloManagement.com

  Please note: message attached

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  lol

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