[Mb-civic] The Renaissance vs The Inquisition: Being Fair To Organized Religion

Fri Oct 29 09:15:28 PDT 2004

one to ask of cheeseburger
all that
but to what purpose
you seem to tear and tear away mr cheeseburger
like a parody of ibsen
very destructive underneath all the pedagogy and the flourish
at least in signigicant part

the fact is though the great great art those of us who are classical artists
draw spiritual nourishment was fostered by the church ( no matter how many
textbooks you mimeograph )

and obviously were aware that the inquisition etc was is monstrous and that
surely the catholic church which is swathed in gold while people starve
still and has that inestimable real estate portfolio is monstrous

so cheesey question
besides trying to tear everyone down and pick apart what everyone is saying
do you actually do anything?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cheeseburger" <maxfury at granderiver.net>
To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:42 AM
Subject: [Mb-civic] The Renaissance vs The Inquisition: Being Fair To
Organized Religion

The Renaissance vs The Inquisition:  Being Fair To Organized Religion

Richard wrote:

=====
BUT ALSO IN FAIRNESS TO ORGANIZED RELIGION IT DID GIVE US SOME OF OUR
GREATEST ART
THE RENAISSANCE
======

Let's just brief it:

Renaissance

The humanistic revival of classical art, architecture, literature, and
learning that originated in Italy in the 14th century and later spread
throughout Europe.

The period of this revival, roughly the 14th through the 16th century,
marking the transition from medieval to modern times.

(CheeseNote:  That's about 200 Years.)

The Inquisition:

n 1: a former tribunal of the Roman Catholic Church (1232-1820) created to
discover and suppress heresy

(CheeseNote:  That's about 600 Years.)

A partial brief look at **some** "Past Failures" of just one branch of
"Organized Religion", in their own words:

Past failures

"The Church is also criticized by some for its failure to admit past
mistakes. Many claim that they have not taken sufficient responsibility for
their alleged (but strongly denied) "complacency" in the Holocaust, for
their persecution of Galileo Galilei, or for their actions during the
Inquisition."

CheeseNote:  Let's hit "The Holocaust" first:

Holocaust (Greek for "a completely (holos) burnt (kaustos) sacrificial
offering") was introduced in the late 20th century to refer to the attempt
of Nazi-ruled Germany to exterminate those groups of people it found
"undesirable".

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/appropriation11.htm

Recent books, including the best selling "Hitler's Pope" and a soon to be
released Argentine government report, firmly link Vatican organizations to
the Fascist Croatian state and subsequent disappearance of its treasury
following the Nazi defeat.

The Fascist Croatian state is credited with murdering over 700,000 Serbians
between 1941 and its demise in 1945.

The suit seeks to recover a percentage of the Croatian hoard estimated to
have been worth as much as 180 million dollars in 1945.

The Serbs were brutally liquidated in a state sponsored killing spree aimed
at cleansing Croatia of adherents to Eastern Orthodox Christianity and the
foundation of an ethnically pure, Roman Catholic state.

CheeseNote:  Who knows what else went on during that period.  On to
"Galileo":

Galileo Galilei (February 15, 1564 - January 8, 1642), was a Tuscan
astronomer, philosopher, and physicist who is closely associated with the
Scientific Revolution. He has been referred to as the "father of modern
astronomy" (a title to which Kepler has perhaps a stronger claim), as the
"father of modern physics", and as "father of science". His experimental
work is widely considered complementary to the writings of Bacon in
establishing the modern scientific method. Galileo was born in Pisa and his
career coincided with that of Kepler. The work of Galileo is considered to
be a significant break from that of Aristotle; in particular, Galileo
placed emphasis on quantity, rather than quality.

http://www.peacelink.de/keyword/Galileo_Galilei.php#Church_controversy

In 1992, 359 years after the Galileo trial, Pope John Paul II issued an
apology, lifting the edict of Inquisition against Galileo: "Galileo sensed
in his scientific research the presence of the Creator who, stirring in the
depths of his spirit, stimulated him, anticipating and assisting his
intuitions." After the release of this report, the Pope said further that
"... Galileo, a sincere believer, showed himself to be more perceptive in
this regard [the relation of scientific and Biblical truths] than the
theologians who opposed him."

CheeseNote:  They made mince-meat out of one of the most intelligent minds
of the time.  Not much has changed today.  On to "The Inquisition":

The first Inquisitions, known as the Medieval Inquisition, was established
in 1184 in response to the Catharist heresy in southern France and faded in
power with the successful suppression of that group.

In 1231, Pope Gregory IX published a decree which called for life
imprisonment with salutary penance for the heretic who had confessed and
repented and capital punishment for those who persisted. The secular
authorities were to carry out the execution. Pope Gregory relieved the
bishops and archbishops of this obligation, and made it the duty of the
Dominican Order, though many inquisitors were members of other orders or of
the secular clergy. By the end of the decade the Inquisition had become a
general institution in all lands under the purview of the Pope. By the end
of the 13th century the Inquisition in each region had a bureaucracy to
help in its function.

The judge, or inquisitor, could bring suit against anyone. The accused had
to testify against himself/herself and did not have the right to face and
question his/her accuser. It was acceptable to take testimony from
criminals, persons of bad reputation, excommunicated people, and heretics.
The accused did not have right to counsel, and blood relationship did not
exempt one from the duty to testify against the accused. Sentences could
not be appealed and inquisitors sometimes interrogated entire populations
in their jurisdiction.

CheeseNote:  Sound familiar...??  Hmmm...??   No...???   Think
harder....!   Go ahead...!!    Think.......!!!!     If you dare.

Although there was no tradition of torture in Christian canon law, this
method came into use by the middle of the 13th century.

CheeseNote:  I hope you're thinking by now...

Penalties went from visits to churches, pilgrimages, and wearing the cross
of infamy to imprisonment (usually for life but the sentences were often
commuted) and (if the accused would not abjure) death. Death was by burning
at the stake, and it was carried out by the secular authorities. Death or
life imprisonment was always accompanied by the confiscation of all the
accused's property.

The Church taught that all true authority comes from God alone, a doctrine
that was supported by secular authorities, as it usually buttressed their
own power. Therefore, the state was interested in preserving God as the
foundation of that authority.

Thus, when it appeared that an attack was made upon any aspect of the
Divine foundation of secular authority (or at least the interpretation of a
Divine foundation), the state would intervene. In the interest of justice
the Church felt the need to provide well educated adjudicators.

Abuses by local Inquisitions early on led to reform and regulation by Rome,
and in the 14th century intervention by secular authorities became common.

The Inquisition succeeded in spreading as far as Venice, Germany and
Scandinavia. In northern Europe the Inquisition was considerably more
benign: in the Scandinavian countries it had hardly any impact (although
northern Europe had its own institutions such as the "witchhunt").The
Inquisition was never instituted in England, but Christopher Columbus
carried it with him to the New World. At the end of the 15th century, under
Ferdinand and Isabella of Castile, the Spanish inquisition became
independent of Rome. In its dealings with converted Moslems and Jews and
also illuminists, the Spanish Inquisition with its notorious "autos de fé "
represents a dark chapter in the history of the Inquisition.

Pope Paul III established, in 1542, a permanent congregation staffed with
cardinals and other officials, whose task it was to maintain and defend the
integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false
doctrines. This body, the Congregation of the Holy Office, now called the
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, part of the Roman Curia, became
the supervisory body of local Inquisitions. The Pope himself holds the
title of prefect but never exercises this office. Instead, he appoints one
of the cardinals to preside over the meetings.

The Holy Office also has an international group of consultants, experienced
scholars of theology and canon law, who advise it on specific questions. In
1616 these consultants gave their assessment of the propositions that the
Sun is immobile and at the center of the universe and that the Earth moves
around it, judging both to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy," and the
first to be "formally heretical" and the second "at least erroneous in
faith" in theology. This assessment led to Copernicus's De Revolutionibus
Orbium Coelestium to be placed on the Index of Forbidden Books, until
revised and Galileo Galilei to be admonished about his Copernicanism. It
was this same body in 1633 that tried Galileo.

CheeseNote:  Uhhh....  LOL......  And now on to the stance of the Church on
"Past Failures, in their own words":

The Church response is that the crimes of the Church have been exaggerated,
and that in 2000 years of Church history there have indeed been some
wrongdoers within the church, but that the evil that has been committed
have too-often been exaggerated and overemphasized, at the expense of the
good that has been done in terms of preserving learning, establishing
education and health care, charity, scientific and technical advancement
and providing a moral basis for western law and society. Most atheists,
humanists and freethinkers strongly dispute these alleged accomplishments.

CheeseNote:  Briefly on to current "Abuse Scandals":

Abuse scandals

In 2002, a major scandal erupted in the U.S. Catholic Church when a wealth
of allegations of priests sexually abusing children surfaced. Adding to the
furor were revelations that the Church was aware of some of the abusive
priests, and simply shuffled them from congregation to congregation instead
of taking action. The scandal led to the resignation of Cardinal Bernard
Law from the Boston archdiocese.

======

Let's start over.

All the "Art" of all the Centuries of all of Mankind is not worth the life
of one human being.

And "Organized Religion" (part of It) this very day has a current view that
"it all was just taken out of proportion and exaggerated for the most part,
the good that has been done in terms of preserving learning, establishing
education and health care, charity, scientific and technical advancement
and providing a moral basis for western law and society is just being
purposefully and spitefully overshadowed by mostly things which are
exaggerations spread by filthy athiests, humanists, and freethinkers".

I'll have to disagree with Them.

The Inquisition never ended.

It just changed a bit with the times.

It came over the ocean to here with Columbus where it is still going
strong, and it is still going strong just about everywhere else in the
world.

They just have better Publicists now.

And have added a few Corporate and Other Interested Parties' names to their
membership.

Oh well, the Renaissance vs The Inquisition.

In all honesty, what really is fair...?

Let's dig up all the many people who were crushed, tortured, ruined,
defamed, banned, murdered, etc, and ask them what they think of all the
pretty pictures on the wall, all the good work Organized Religion has done
in preserving learning, establishing education and health care, charity,
scientific and technical advancement and providing a moral basis for
western law and society.

Surely their opinion must be worth *something*.

If they're athiests, humanists, freethinkers, or anti-Bush, call the
locals, have them locked them up for a while.

After they're gone, call maintenance, have them come up here and clean all
this rot up they left on the floor.

Cheeseburger

- Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.

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