[Mb-civic] Ian's response re EMAIL WITH A FRIEND

Thu Oct 28 16:22:16 PDT 2004

Ah! God is dead...imagine no heaven...no hell below us.

We are left on this earth-there is no second coming-he already came!

We are here with our own collective remembrance, with our own spirits-how we elevate this spirit depends in which group we travel. 

Where we go, once we are spiritually enlighted is up to us, our mentors, our belief system. How we pray to do whatever we need to do is up to our own spirits!

"Our only concern is to protect our still small flame" Carl Jung.

Lyle K'ang
Enterprise Insights: 
SiloManagement Is The Death Knell of Business...
http://www.SiloManagement.com

-- "Ian" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Michael:

The dark forces do not "come" from organized religion.  It may well be that
organized religion does less (far less) than it should to fight those
forces, and, either by not doing so, or by misguided active participation,
may (and probably does) add to those dark forces, or at least makes them
stronger.

I also agree that we all have the right to believe in whatever we want, and
to say so.  As the old cannard goes: "I may not agree with what you say, but
I will defend to the death your right to say it."  However, as I'm sure you
wold agree, we also have a responsibility to try to (humbly, patiently,
lovingly) convince others of the correctness of our point of view if we
truly believe they are misguided - whether spiritually, politically,
economically, or otherwise.  Again, I stress that this responsibility must
be undertaken not from a prosyletizing, ram-it-down-the-other-persons-throat
approach - which is how so much "persuasion," both spiritually and
politically, is currently (and wrongly) undertaken, but from a patient,
humble and loving approach.

Finally, you are, of course, 110% correct in noting the "terrible" aspect of
"continuing violence in the name of God."  Indeed, any Jew, Christian,
Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jainist, Zoroastrian or other "believer" is
dangerously misguided if they do not understand this, and try to find
Scriptural or other "support" for a pro-violence and/or pro-war stance.
Because although some faith-based texts (e.g., The Bible, The Qur'an, and
others) do have historical violence, and even some admonitions to violence
in specific circumstances, there is NO religion, faith or spiritual belief
of which I am aware (and I have read the underlying texts of almost all of
them) in which the underlying scripture or text supports a generally violent
approach to life and living it.

Peace.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Butler" <michael at michaelbutler.com>
To: "Civic" <mb-civic at islandlists.com>; "HAIR List"
<mb-hair at islandlists.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: [Mb-civic] Ian's response re EMAIL WITH A FRIEND

Dear Ian,
I respect your views. I feel the dark forces have come from organized
religion. We all have the right to believe in whatever and to say so. The
terrible aspect is the continuing violence in name of God.
I know you have the same desire for Peace.
Love,
Michael

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Ian" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:43:42 -0400

Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] EMAIL WITH A FRIEND

Michael:

I was intrigued by one of your comments.  You said: "Spirituality is the
only future and that wont come from religion. God or the Gods are playing
too many tricks. It can only come from within. We had a chance in the 60's
and we were not strong enough to overcome the dark forces.  Now they seem to
be on both sides of the aisle."

As a minister, I would be remiss in not asking: have you considered the
possibility that the very approach used in the 60s, and that you are
suggesting now again - "it can only come from within" - is the very reason
WHY you "were not strong enough to overcome the dark forces?"

>From the Judeo-Christian perspective, this "come from within" approach is
the very approach that STRENGTHENS the "dark forces" AGAINST the positive
spirituo-religious forces that might avail against them.

Yes, I know that many (perhaps most) non-believers have a dim view of
"religion," due to the way that all of them have been bastardized, co-opted
and apostatized.  However, I reiterate that "Religion is about laws and
behavior; faith is about a relationship with God (and Christ)".

In this regard, I, too, have serious concerns and misgivings about what has
come to be called "religion."  But that does not change my feeling - and my
understanding of my faith - that putting one's faith in oneself and one's
"better nature" or "good conscience" is dangerously misguided, and only
gives "the enemy" (whomever or whatever you perceive him/it to be) more
"fuel for the fire."  It is only when we put our faith in God - and refrain
from attempting to use our own efforts (spiritual or otherwise) - that the
"dark forces" might be overcome.

This does not mean idle worship (pun intended); i.e., simply praying and
hoping that things will change.  Certainly, even Christians (and other
believers) have an obligation to be active in trying to effect change for
the betterment of all people.  But to suggest that "God or the Gods are
playing too many tricks," and that we can - or even should - somehow attempt
to hinder God from His work (whether or not we are happy about the outcome
of that work: "His ways are not our ways") would seem to engender flagrant
arrogance or "pride" - the deadliest of all sins.

Peace.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Butler" <michael at michaelbutler.com>
To: "Family Finance" <michael at michaelbutler.com>; "Civic"
<mb-civic at islandlists.com>; "HAIR List" <mb-hair at islandlists.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:04 PM
Subject: [Mb-civic] EMAIL WITH A FRIEND

Compadre,

Were we not lucky to have lived in that era? Notwithstanding the
circumstances, Warfield or whatever, I hate to say it, sounds like an old
saw but things were better those days for everyone.
Now where and how do we go? Spirituality is the only future and that wont
come from religion. God or the Gods are playing too many tricks. It can only
come from within. We had a chance in the 60's and we were not strong enough
to overcome the dark forces. Now they seem to be on both sides of the aisle.
I have great fear for the kids and more so for my grandchild. What a bleak
future they are facing. We need to continue to try to right this boat. The
important things are family and friends, the more the better. Compassion is
the keyword, so abused by our our current president. Let us hope the next
one does show that peace and love are the only objectives that will work.

Michael

> Don Miguel,
>
> Ah, Warfield. What a wild (and well managed) place! I remember bringing
the
> Bauls of Bengal there one dark winter night for one of your soirées and
your
> butler -- suspicious of these dark skinned joyous eyed Bengalis in their
> lunghis, sandals and Marks and Spencer overcoats -- fed them in the
kitchen.
> They then made their music and blew everyone away. If I remember, George
and
> Patty Harrison gave me a ride home that night to Wentworth where I was
> staying with Don'o(van). Those were the days, eh? Don't envy you living in
> America now in that cyclotron of fear spawned spin, altered perceptions
and
> partisan vendettas. Against the greater reality, it's all so petty.
Everyone
> is bending the facts and objective truth is the victim. Instead of facing
> the music, Lib and Con alike are feeding the cacophony. Everyone is too
soft
> and comfortable and ignorant of the greater world. It doesn't matter who
the
> president is to the Middle East, they're on their own fools ride of denial
> and destruction. That clock's been ticking for centuries and the chimes
are
> deafening. The next decade is going to be helter-skelter to say the least.
> Antonio

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