[Mb-civic] email with a friend

[Cheeseburger]

Re:  email with a friend


I wrote:

=======
Your premise of such a "judeo-christianic" perspective which entails "the 
light coming from outside, God, to the inside of a human", continues to 
eliminate the argument of "free will", which is strewn throughout the bible 
somewhere.  It is that "free will" from *within* a human that must *first* 
choose the "light" over the "darkness" for (usually) any help from "God's 
Power" coming from the exterior to bolster the strength of the interior.
========


Ian wrote:

========
You are confusing "free will" with "faith."
==========


Let's start over.  There is no such phrase as "Free Will" in either the Old 
or New Testament of the King James Version, just to begin with.

That is something that was written and spoken by someone else a long long 
long time ago.  At least according to my search of online bibles for both 
the words "free" and "will" and the combination of "free will".

However, I remember that phrase of "Free Will", I guess, from old sermons I 
heard as a child.  Where they got it, I have no earthly idea.  Some MAN 
made it up one day, and it passed on to you and me at this instant in the 
future.  (If you find any verse in the bible using that phrase, correct me, 
and I will, of course, stand corrected).

Back to the subject, I know the difference between "free will" and "faith".

"Free Will" indicates acceptance or rejection of anything by the express 
permission or dismissal of one's personal will.

"Faith" is just that, "believing in something", you name the subject.


Ian wrote again:

=======
You are correct that "free will" is ultimately the "free will" to accept or 
reject God (and Christ).  But that is only the beginning.  Once you have 
"accepted," it is then necessary to have "faith," which is defined as 
"belief in things unseen and certainty of things hoped for."
========


I write:

========
You are a Christian Priest..?  (I'll swiftly move by the fact that we both 
know, whether it is absolute reality or not that Jesus is "The One", that 
the numerical statistics of religions by population across the globe do not 
profess him.  Nor do I think everyone is going to hell if they do not 
accept him etc etc etc as "The Sole One", rejecting their religions which 
were here thousands of years before Jesus himself was born.)

And go right into the fact that the exact moment that one's "Free Will" is 
exercised in an acceptance or rejection of *anything*, is the moment one's 
"Faith" clicks in automatically, by the very fact that one has stepped over 
a threshold of "The Choice" or "A Choice", after having stood so long in 
the middle of a pond deciding which way to go.  I think it is probably 
organized religion and other interested parties that have built a career 
off of the lifetime building of one's "Faith".  Certainly, there are 
various levels of *everything*, so they say, however the exploitation of 
one's basic instances of "Faith" have been exploited into corporations 
beyond my reckoning for so long I forget.

A human must *choose*, between *anything*, whether "light" or "darkness" even.

If it is between "light" or "darkness", or a "God" of "Light" or a "God" of 
"Darkness", it is within that Exact Moment of Choice that a human (many of 
them, one might presume) exercises their personal *Will*, or *Free Will* if 
they are making such a Choice not under duress or other contributing factors.

It is their very instantaneous usage of their personal "Free Will" that has 
activated their *Faith*.

Not 83 seconds or 83 years later.


Ian wrote:

======
This does not, of course, mean that every single thing you hope for will 
come true: "faith" is also the belief that God knows what He's doing, that 
He has it all "under control" (within His meaning), and that he knows you 
better than you know yourself.  You clearly do not believe this.
========


I write:

============
I normally get paid for this, along with a nice meal and some drinks, hehe...

:)

F*ck no, I don't believe that.

I used to be brainwashed in that direction, but I saw a doctor and got rid 
of it.

"God" certainly "might know me better than I know myself", lol.

However, NO, I don't believe that ANYBODY'S "God" who can sit there on his 
ass while a 4 year old gets run over by a truck chasing a ball in the 
street, or a mother drowns her 4 children in a bathtub in Texas, or 2 guys 
drag a black guy to his death behind a pickup truck, or ETC ETC ETC, "Knows 
what they are doing and Has it all under control".

H*ll no.

Line up all the Gods of This Planet Earth who profess to "Know What They're 
Doing And Has It All Together" while letting such things happen constantly 
to, among others, The Innocents of this place, and I will knock them all 
down with a gentle sigh.

And they will fall to their ruin.

As no REAL GOD who might profess and preach such things as Love, Life, 
Compassion, Healing, Etc would allow such fantastically horrible things to 
occur on This Planet Earth and *at the same time* have the =outrageous= 
AUDACITY nor POWER to stand before my face and BOAST of "Knowing What They 
Are Doing And Having It All Under Control".

I will kick each of their asses either individually or collectively.

Here I am, bring em on.

If you are going to leave a vast loophole in the entire thing, however, by 
using such a term as "Within His Meaning", that opens up an entirely 
different chasm of discussion which is basically founded in conjecture that 
humans actually "Understand God's Meaning" as well as he himself does.

Other than that, line them all up, all of them who make such bold arrogant 
claims, I'll tie one hand behind my back just to be fair.
==============


Ian wrote:

==========
And this (among other reasons, which I address below) is why your claimed 
"faith" fails.
==========

I refuse to have "Ultimate Blind Faith" in anything or anyone that 
professes not only to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, but 
allows, among others, The Innocents of This Planet Earth to suffer and die 
horribly while preaching "Don't worry, I know what I am doing and have it 
all under control".

If other beings wish to worship such "Gods", that remains not my fault that 
they would believe in a "God" that would allow such things, demanding Blind 
Faith all through it, while preaching such tenets as Love, Life, 
Compassion, Healing, Etc.

Not only does it not make ANY sense at all to a mature human mind after 
having experienced this Life for a while (at least not in my opinion), but 
I consider such self-acclaimed "Almighty Beings", who make such 
phenomenally crass claims, now as TOTAL ASSHOLES.

And, surely, if they are "Omnipotent", then they certainly know how to 
reach me to discuss it.

So far no REAL GODS who make such outlandish claims while delving out such 
outrageous events have shown up.

At least not any with any power greater than mine.

Go figure.

My "faith has failed"....?

No, Ian, my "faith" is still here.

I just woke up a little.  That's all.

Dreams can be nice, but after a while someone now and then wakes up and 
just gets a little tired of living in an Illusion.


Ian wrote:

======
Ultimately, you are not simply choosing "light" over "darkness," but you 
are choosing God's plans and actions over not only those of "the enemy," 
but over the actions you might take - and thus expect God to take - in a 
given situation.  Again, you have clearly not "submitted" yourself to this 
degree of faith.
===============


No, I am choosing "Light" over "Darkness".

"God's" "plans and actions", as well as those of "the enemy", remain 
nothing short than questionable.

No, I will not follow a cruel and heartless "God" who continuously preaches 
Love, Light, Life, Healing, Hope, Peace, Etc, blindly over a cliff as so 
many other before me have.

Of *any* religion.

When I arrived here on Earth, such madness was not in my contract to have 
to accept.

So far my agent continues to tell me I'm doing just fine, and I have no 
immediate plans to have such a non-sanity clause written into it.
======


I wrote:

=======
Jesus once said something like "if you had the faith of a mustard seed, you 
could say to the mountain 'be gone' and the mountain would be removed. Such 
"faith" comes from inside, not from God.  If such internal machinations are 
not in place to begin with "inside", you can yell at the mountain all day 
long and most likely "external forces" are not going to help you.
========


Ian wrote:

=========
100% incorrect.  Given that the mustard seed is the second smallest seed in 
the world, Jesus was using this example to show just how little faith even 
the most "faithful" Christian has, since few (if any) Christians can 
accomplish the "miracles" that He did.  This was not to "denigrate" 
believers, but to point out that if they had fully, completely, absolutely 
submissive and obedient faith, they could do miracles.
===========


Face it, Ian, we live in a rather intellectually advanced world.  With all 
of the *Enormous Faith* going around these days, we should be seeing people 
healing the lame etc left and right in These Modern Times.  We've had 2,000 
years to work on our "Faith" stuff.  What was it, Jesus took a handful of 
fishermen?, Saul of Tarsus, and a couple others?, and turned them into 
people who were able to cast out demons, various diseases, etc, by their 
"Faith", and then the disciples all "went to heaven", and nobody left on 
Earth has ever been able to reduplicate the basic "Faith" of that handful 
of "lowly fishermen"....????  Give me a break.
=======


Ian wrote:

=======
Indeed, He added later that, for those who develop such faith, "greater 
works than Mine will you do."  That said, the faith He was talking about 
does not come from inside; it comes from (as noted) fully, completely, 
absolute submission and obedience to God, and God's Will - not your (i.e., 
human) will.
========


This world obviously got a failing grade in "Faith" then, Ian, both 
individually and collectively.  I'm sorry, but after having relatively 
reviewed the story over and over and over for about the last Half Century, 
it just "doesn't all add up".  There are obviously some pieces to the 
puzzle missing, and they certainly aren't sitting anywhere near a King 
James Version of The Bible today.

And, yes, "Faith" *does* come from "Inside" a human being.

Not from all that "submit" and "obey" Vatican etc crap that has been thrust 
down the throats of humanity for eons now.

People can have "Faith" in anything or anyone they want.

I'm just not going shlupping over the cliff with them in their blind fervor 
and devout faith that can't even make a mustard seed jump into a hat.

I did for 50 years, however.  But I just grew up.

There *are* "miracles" and "faith" *is* a good thing.

Dogma remains Dogma.

Again, there are many pieces of *several* "puzzles" that still remain 
missing, including "The Bible" itself.

I simply refuse to throw myself over a cliff with blind faith in half a puzzle.

If others do, that is their *Choice*.
==========


I wrote:

=========
By the way, I yelled at a mountain all day long and commanded it and it 
just stood there and stared at me.  I also prayed to Everyone.  God, the 
Devil, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Jesus, everyone.  Nobody came to even 
mildly help my mother and father who died of the worst cancer known to 
mankind and a simple bedsore.  Nobody.  The only one I found standing 
between the forces of "darkness" and the tragic fates of my people was 
myself.  Unfortunately, I was just not enough.
==========


Ian wrote:

===========
Again, because your faith is not submissive and obedient, but "expectant" - 
i.e., you feel that your faith "entitles" you to God's help in any and 
every situation in which you ask it - it will fail you.  In addition, the 
very fact that you were pray to anyone but Christ only adds to the 
unlikelihood that God will answer your prayers.  Try praying only to Christ 
- humbly (and I mean humbly), honestly and fervently.  God's Will may still 
be otherwise than you want, but you are far more likely to have your 
prayers answered.
===============


I write:

=========
You're stuck in your ways and the dogma you profess, Ian.

I tell you what, I'll dig up both my parents, put little party hats on 
them, and pray for a couple of years to Jesus "solely", and maybe he will 
raise them from the dead.

Get real.  "God's" "will", whatever "God" one chooses these days, is warped.

Face it.

You're stuck in a rut of dogma for which millions of people have paid for 
such dogma with their very lives.

Sorry, I'm not one of them.

Nor is it A FACT that everybody who "doesn't believe in Jesus" is going to 
"Hell".

You're just going to have to come to grips with that some day.

And, if anything, we are in "Hell" already.

Such blind dogma, no matter just about what "religion", continues to ensure 
that our stay will be a long and unhealthful one.
============


I wrote:

=========
All "light" that might appear within the human experience certainly is not 
born from solely "within", but it is that "inner" "light" that gives us 
measly humans the strength to fight seemingly invincible forces that 
apparently surround almost everything good we endeavor to accomplish.  If 
anything, that accomplishment of any sort of "inner" "light" only pisses 
off any "dark forces" hanging around as it winds up being more than they 
bargained for.
===========


Ian wrote:

==========
Well, sort of.  However, you clearly do not understand how "the enemy" (as 
"defined" by the Judeo-Christian construct) works.  True, you may win a 
battle or two against "the forces of darkness."  But the fact that you use 
your own efforts - instead of relying on God and His Will (and His power) - 
leaves a huge "hole" in your faith, one that "the enemy" can and will 
exploit.  Thus, you may "win the battle" but you will most certainly "lose 
the war."
============


I write:

==========
Who knows, you might be right on that one, Ian.  Seriously, I'll give it a 
try and see what shakes loose.  Regardless of the reality of that one way 
or the other, it sounds like good strategy in some cases.   The "submit and 
obey" stuff remains a bit archaic on some levels though.
===========


I wrote:

=======
Again, Christ, albeit it may be otherwise in reality, has wound up being a 
"minor figure" in the religions of most of this world's populations who 
simply do not even consider him as a player in their "faiths".  The 
"judeo-christianic" religion still remains one of the least populated ones, 
if we go by population numbers on the planet.
==========


Ian wrote:

==========
This is probably the most ridiculous statement I have ever 
heard.  Christianity remains the largest religion in the world, though 
Islam is fast coming up on it.  Thus, even if Christianity were the only 
religion in which Christ was venerated, you would be incorrect.
==========


I write:

===========
There are more people in OTHER religions, ALL of the other religions in the 
world COMBINED, than there are in the Christian religion, even though 
"Christianity" remains at the top of the "most populous" world religion 
with approximately 1 Billion "members".  Ships parsing words in the middle 
of the night.  ALL Christians, of all the Christian religions in the world, 
comprise =33 Percent= of the world's people who profess a religion.  That 
figure comes from "100 Percent Of People Who Claim A Religion" and includes 
the 14 Percent who profess a basic "No Religion".
============


Ian wrote:

==========
However, Islam holds Jesus as the second most Holy figure after Mohammed: 
although not considered the "Son of God," He is considered God's greatest 
prophet after Mohammed.
===========


I write:

=========
Well, oops, that puts ALL OF ISLAM on "Christianity's" sh*t list COMPLETELY 
then, doesn't it.  Yes, if they "don't accept Jesus Christ as Lord and 
Savior", it certainly does.  Eternally.  Ouch, that's gotta hurt.  I now 
see how easily "holy wars" have been and continue to be so creatively 
concocted and spread like the viruses they are.
=========


Ian wrote:

========
He is mentioned countless times in the Qur'an.  In addition, Mary is the 
most venerated woman in Islam because she is the mother of Jesus.
========


I write:

=======
Regardless, ***that***  =still= LITERALLY puts approximately 1 BILLION 
CHRISTIANS firmly still in THE ABSOLUTE BELIEF that ALL OF ISLAM, unless of 
course they somehow "turn to Jesus", are GOING TO HELL TO BURN IN THE FIRES 
OF DARKNESS FOREVER.  As well as all the members of all the other religions 
of this world.  A comforting thought, eh..?   :|
========


Ian wrote:

=======
As an aside, I am sure you have heard of the Al Aksa Mosque, what is often 
called the "Dome of the Rock" on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.  It is the 
third holiest shrine in Islam.
========


I write:

=======
Yes, I know of that Shrine.  It's the one that the Right Wing Zealots and 
the Right Wing Government Etc Hawks of Israel remain too cheap to give up 
to The Palestinians, and rather prefer everlasting war, death, and 
suffering to giving up a tiny PIECE OF REAL ESTATE that JUST HAPPENS TO BE 
THE 3RD HOLIEST SHRINE IN ALL OF ISLAM to aid in the producing of some 
inconsequential thing called "Peace".  No, Ian, I haven't forgotten that yet.
=========


Ian wrote:

======
Do you know what is written - in Arabic - around the top of the inside of 
the Mosque?  An admonition to worship Jesus and Mary as well as 
Mohammed.  In the third holiest shrine in Islam.  And you call Jesus a 
"minor figure?"
=======


I write:

========
As far as ==THE== CENTRAL Character in a religion, yes, Jesus remains 
*that* only to a scant 33 Percent of the people of the world that profess 
belief in any religion, excluding the 14 percent who profess no faith at 
all.  And as we all know by this time, 33 percent of the people in this 
world who profess The Christian Faith, by WRITTEN DOGMA, must doom the 
other 3/4 of the entire planet to doom and destruction and suffering in the 
pits of Hell for their nonbelief of Jesus as THE ONE AND ONLY.  Just as 
they are today in this enlightened era of the modern age.  Again, a really 
charming thought.
=========


I wrote:

=======
"God helps those who help themselves".
=======


Ian wrote:

=======
That phrase is not only not Scriptural, but it is actually 180 degrees from 
it, and is a perfect example of what I am talking about: the dangerously 
heretical belief that it is our own efforts that avail us.  No!  It is 
"grace" and our submission to God's Will - and not our own - that avails us.
========


I write:

=======
I never said that phrase was "scriptural".  As far as "God's Will", it 
certainly might be there and functioning, but it obviously has a screw 
loose some place and the maintenance man is over-obviously either on a 
break or on vacation.
=======


I wrote:

========
I understand your directly above argument.  However, if I had completely 
followed it unwaveringly and with blind faith, in several circumstances of 
my life, I would have died, struck down by the "dark forces", and not be 
sitting here typing this to you.
=========


Ian wrote:

=========
No one is saying that common sense and caution are not appropriate.  If you 
see a car coming at you, simply praying that it doesn't hit you is foolish; 
you have to jump out of the way.  However, if you are talking about "things 
spiritual," then all you are saying is that everything is about you.
==========


I write:

======
I never said that.
=======


Ian wrote:

=====
You forget that everything you have - your body, your mind, your spirit, 
your very breath - are gifts from God.  You do not "own" anything, so, 
ultimately, nothing is about you.
======


I write:

========
Gifts they might truly be.  You might have something there.  I own myself, 
though, Ian.  I am slave to neither God nor Devil.  Again, you have in 
dogma tradition eliminated the process of "Free Will" and replaced it with 
"Blind Faith" and "Ownership Of Nothing".  I have forever, and will 
continue to own my soul, Ian.  He who rents it out on a puzzle with half 
the pieces missing remains, most likely, inaccurate in their complete 
estimation of Reality.  One, here, may freely *Serve* any Entity they so 
choose.  That's an entirely different discussion though.  Suffice it to say 
that EVERYTHING is about US, Ian.  There is OBVIOUSLY a literal battle 
between the "forces" of "light" and "darkness" occurring on this planet, 
and other places for all I or you actually know, and part of the ENTIRE 
crux of it all remains at the veritable crossroads of The Human Soul, or 
The Psyche for you "nonbelievers".  The "nothing is about you" story 
remains a child's tale told to children tucked in their beds who in their 
innocence know no better.  It is ALL about us, which is why we are here to 
begin with.  It is about that little "Choice" that each of us must make at 
every step we take on this planet.  Surely, there might be something much 
greater than the actual battle between "light" and "darkness" and "life" 
and "death" and for "the human soul" on this planet.  So far nobody has 
found it.  If you're referring to "A God", again, look upwards to my 
previous words in this communication, and you will find that I am still 
standing here waiting for ANY cruel and boastful God that will sit around 
and let a woman drown her 4 innocent children in a bathtub and then step 
forth in their shining robes and proclaim "Don't worry, I'm in charge of 
everything, I know what I'm doing, I have everything under control" to come 
before me and look me in the eyes without cowering in fear and begging for 
forgiveness and mercy.
=======


Ian wrote:

=======
You owe everything to God.  If you are then led into a situation in which 
the "dark forces" might "strike you down," perhaps there is a good reason 
for it.  It might not seem like a good reason to you.  But "His ways are 
not our ways," and "Who can understand the mind of God?"
========


I write:

=======
Again, for all *I* personally know, you might be absolutely right on that, 
Ian.  I still can find no "Good Reason", however, among a ZILLION other 
things, for allowing a woman to drown her 4 innocent babies in a 
bathtub.  Any "justification" of such things SURELY must be put down to 
"Who can know God's ways?", as there is definitely nothing sane in the 
human gears of integrous morality that I can find for such a ruthless 
"justification".  Organized religion has used such things to "explain away" 
various horrors of Human Life for so long that it became ridiculous before 
they invented it.  Certainly, true, in some cases, perhaps there *indeed* 
might be some form of *Divine Intervention*.  It has, however, just become 
blaringly apparent that Heaven is vastly understaffed in, again, zillions 
of cases.
========


Ian wrote:

========
Ultimately, your physical death is nowhere near as important as your 
spiritual life.  Your spirit inhabits your mortal body for about 80 years - 
but it inhabits the afterworld for eternity.  Which is more important?  By 
focusing on this life - indeed, by feeling "entitled" to it, and even 
second guessing God's Will for you - you endanger yourself spiritually.
==========


I write:

=======
That one's up for grabs, Ian.  You're telling me that an OMNIPOTENT God 
*really* is going to make things better in an Afterlife after putting us 
through literal living torturous hell here for "80 years" when he could 
blink his eye and change everything and make it all better in less than an 
instant...?  Let's surely hope you are right.  If it, however, on the other 
hand, turns out that this life we currently emote though IS Hell, and but 
the prelude to the punchline of The Main Joke Hall Of Hell which is The 
Afterlife, I would have to say that we are totally screwed at this 
point.  Wouldn't you agree...?  Let's hope that the latter just isn't 
so.  And that something more better and marvelous than an eternal joke will 
be our reward when we "reach the other side".
=========


I wrote:

=========
The "judeo-christianic" bible is such an interesting thing, depending upon 
which version you get of it, and excluding the 80 books left out of it upon 
its "Creation" by the Vatican and the Church of England.  In one verse it 
will state something like "By faith ye are saved, not by works, lest any 
man should boast". Yet, in another, it will state "What is faith without 
works to prove them?"
=========


Ian wrote:

==========
These two statements are not mutually exclusive.  In fact, the first goes 
to the very heart of this discussion.  That is, "By faith [belief in God 
and His Will] ye are saved, and not through works [your own efforts], "lest 
any man should boast" - which is exactly what you (and others) are doing: 
"boasting" about how "good" you are, how much "inner goodness" you have, etc.
==========


I write:

========
Let's just keep it real simple and real and truthful.  Point out any 
*specific* instances of me "boasting" and "boasting about how good I am" 
and "boasting about how much inner goodness I have", and I will address 
those specifically, rather than unproven generalizations which so far have 
no meaning to me at all as I can find no basis for your claim whatsoever in 
my own writings.
==========


Ian wrote:

=======
The second statement - taken in context (since you, like the so-called 
Christian Right, seem to love taking Scripture out of context to support 
your position) - simply suggests that you can have all the faith in the 
world, but if you do not help others, if you do not put that faith into 
action, your faith alone will not save you.  "Salvation" and "eternal life" 
are through faith in Christ; but that faith must also be "put into action" 
just as Christ did.
===========


I write:

=========
First, again, everybody who doesn't belief specifically in Jesus Christ as 
"lord and saviour" is not going to Hell, Ian.  You are, again, just going 
to have to come to grips with that some day, in spite of the latticed dogma 
you have learned and repeat as trained.

Secondly, I'm not "The Christian Right".  If I make a mistake and am 
corrected, I normally own up to it.  I'm still studying the above puzzle.
========


I wrote:

========
It is the faith in ourselves and our aspirations toward "making the 
universe a better place to live" in the midst of this tyranny, death, 
destruction, suffering, and darkness that strengthens us internally and 
that allows the inner light to burn fiercely eradicating the illusions and 
crafts of the "dark forces".  God is not going to the voting polls in one 
week.  Although I could be wrong.
========


Ian wrote:

==========
As I have now made clear, your faith in yourself is exactly what is 
preventing you from truly reaping the benefits of faith in God and Christ.
==========


I write:

=======
I think I've covered that one already, rather thoroughly.
=======


I wrote:

==========
*Many* of us, unfortunately, have not become "totally enlightened" where we 
can easily and completely put our complete "faith in God" and "the mountain 
will be removed because we have the mere faith of a mustard seed".  Some of 
us have found, fortunately and unfortunately, that we must find that "inner 
light" within ourselves, pick up the gun beside the table which we abhor, 
and blow the guy's brains out who has broken into our apartment and 
threatening to slit our wife's and childrens' throats.
============


Ian wrote:

=======
I feel very bad for you that this is even a possibility in your world.  You 
clearly have little understanding of your own faith - if indeed it is the 
faith you profess.
========


I write:

========
You're kidding.  Show me where "Faith" is going to make the robber drop the 
knife from the throat of my wife and my children and make everything 
better, and I will listen to more.  If you, in that instance, would not 
pick up the gun on your table and blow the man's head off before he slit 
your family's throat, I feel sorry for you, kid.
=========


Ian wrote:

=========
Again, you clearly do not understand how "the enemy" (as defined within the 
Judeo-Christian construct) works.
=========


I write:

======
You're going to just have to get used to The Reality that "The 
Judeo-Christian Construct" is NOT SOLELY IN CHARGE of "defining the enemy", 
even though for all you or I know they might be right.  NOR does "The 
Judeo-Christian Construct" run around fighting them.  We do.  Individually 
and Collectively.  Your "arguments", although mine might not be worth 
zilch, remain firmly planted in "The Judeo-Christian Construct", which, 
again, remains In Reality nothing short of a "puzzle without all the 
pieces", both realistically and historically, set before us to deal 
with.  But this "Construct" is still sitting there barking orders, century 
after century.  If various people choose to live within various 
"Constructs" on this planet, great, that's their business.  I'll opt for 
Real Life every time, and let the "Constructs" catch up to me, as they 
certainly are not running around saving 4 year old girls from being crushed 
by dump trucks.  We are.
===========


Ian wrote:

======
Or even that it is "the enemy" that is working.  God does not "micromanage" 
the world.  It would take me far more space and time than we have here to 
explain the nature of evil within the Judeo-Christian construct.
=======


I write:

======
And that right there remains a major flaw with all the "Gods" and 
"Religions" of the world that continue to maintain that they are the only 
right ones and their "Gods" are the only legitimate ones and their 
"constructs" and "dogmas" are the only ones based in Reality.
=========


Ian wrote:

========
However, in (very) brief, although God created the universe and everything 
in it (including the world), Satan ("the enemy") has been the "ruler" of 
this world since the "creation" of humankind.  Satan's "dominion" over 
earth is complete: there is nothing that he is not permitted to do.
=========


I write:

========
Look, Ian, so far "S*tan" can't kick my ass, and I'm wiping up the floor 
with him.  That blows that "theory" out of the water completely just for 
opening cards.
=========


Ian wrote:

=======
  Satan's primary job is to keep us from believing in God, and thus 
exercising our free will to accept Him.  As long as Satan can keep a person 
from believing in God, he is happy, since that means he "wins": that person 
does not exercise their free will to accept God, and thus their soul is 
lost to God.  And don't forget that Satan is not only an "angel of light," 
he is also the smartest, cleverest, most brilliant angel of them all.  He 
is also the "father of lies," the "great deceiver," etc.  Thus, he will do 
anything and everything in his power to make you believe that God either 
doesn't exist, or doesn't care, and thus you should not believe in Him.
=========


I write:

=========
I cannot dispute that what you have just written directly above remains at 
the core of "The Judeo-Christian Construct".  Nor can I deny that there is 
obviously some major "Evil" and "Darkness" going on on this planet that is 
not solely walking around on 2 human legs.  The point remains that my 
"Choice" of "Light" and "Life" as opposed to "Darkness" and "Death" was 
made from the innocence of childhood, and no "Construct", from any 
direction, holds sway over such Reality, nor do they manage to define it 
with any power, nor do they manage to diminish its quality.
==========


Ian wrote:

==========
which is anathema to the Christian construct.
===========


I write:

=======
There are many "anathema's" to "The Christian Construct", Ian, some of them 
based in Reality.  It still comes down to the FACT that "The Christian 
Construct" is operating on a group of documents from which about 80 of them 
were excluded by both the Vatican and the Church of England I believe.  Who 
knows what else was "left out" for various reasons and by various 
entities.  You'll just have to face it some day, or not, that *parts* of 
this particular "Absolute Construct" are completely missing, and some of 
the premises derived from a "Partial Puzzle" can just no longer be easily 
explained away by telling someone to "Have Faith, You Don't Understand How 
God Works".   Organized Religion has been using that same scam for 
Centuries, to the detriment and deaths of more people than I can count.  I 
guess that kind of crap works from a pulpit, but down on the street, we 
know better not to take apples from strangers and just gobble them down, 
especially with pieces missing from them already.
=========


Ian wrote:

=========
Again, it is Satan who has rulership over the world.
=========


I write:

========
Those were the old days, Ian.  I'm back.  What..?  No party....?
========


Ian wrote:

=========
If you want to see this as God "allowing it to occur," so be it.  But, 
again, unless and until your faith is submissive and obedient to God and 
His will - and not to what you want, expect or think should be - your faith 
will continue to fail you.
==========


I write:

=======
My faith is stronger than ever, Ian.
=======


Ian wrote:

=========
As for the priest at the funeral, if he said those words and did not 
believe them (considered them "preposterous"), then he should be defrocked.
==========


I write:

========
I consider them preposterous.  And in reality they remain so to this very 
instant.
=========


Ian wrote:

==========
As for "The Truth," what "truth" are you speaking of?  Yours - from your 
puny human subjective perspective of what "truth" might or might not be, or 
indeed, what you might want it to be?  Or God's - which is truth from its 
source?  Once again, your own words condemn you, and show why your "faith" 
fails you time and time again.
===========


I write:

=======
My "puny human subjective perspective"...?

LOL.......

Now I remember why the Vatican Etc are such *ssholes.

They not only got too big for their own pants, but both forgot and quit 
practicing the very teachings of God himself, long long ago.

As far as "my words" "condemning" me....

My words have saved both myself and the universe, Ian.

It is the blinded dogmatic words various "Constructs" of various puzzles 
with so many missing pieces that have been spoken for so long that has 
enslaved us for Centuries, and continues to do so.
============


Ian wrote:

=======
"Salvation" is solely and exclusively from faith in Christ as Messiah.
=======


I write:

======
Centuries of a Partial Puzzle Dogma, nothing more, nothing less.  Believe 
what you will.  I, unlike so many other entities, refuse to condemn you for 
them, although, out of sheer Reality's sake, will continue to disagree with 
some of them.
======


I wrote:

=======
In "the 60's", it was that seeking and cultivation of that "inner light" 
that "almost changed the world and made it a better place to live in".
=======


Ian wrote:

==========
Balderdash.  Your statement - which reiterates Michael's - is the entire 
reason I wrote my first e-mail.  As I posited, it was the very "inner 
light" approach that was wrong, and caused its own failure.  And please, 
let's be honest with ourselves and each other: it did not "almost change 
the world"; it had a minor effect on a relatively small section of it.  I 
loved the 60s too.  But your phony "revisionism" is unbecoming - to say 
nothing of inaccurate.
============


I write:

=======
A "minor effect".  Hilarious.

You're living in a dream world.  And, yes, it *did* "almost change the 
world".  I find it rather funny, as I always have, that you, or anyone, 
would sit here, or anywhere, and try to push the same old brainwashed line 
of bullshit that if the 60's had "never happened", and *exactly* as they 
did, that the Current World would be *exactly* like it is today, or even 
just *mildly similar*, because "all that stuff" was merely "minor".

A complete crock.

And the "inner light" "way" was *not* wrong.  It was the *right* way to go.

It remains strict Partial Puzzle Dogma relinquished upon this planet so 
long ago for such a long time now that continues to dismiss any "inner 
light" machinations as complete folly, lies, and blasphemy, in the face of 
a "God" who "demands blind faith and obedience constantly" but just can't 
get around to "micromanaging" all the bullshit he lets happen.

Again, it's a brand new day, Ian, glad you could make it.
========


Ian wrote:

========
For obvious reasons - most of which can be inferred from my comments herein 
- I will most definitely not be promoting "inner light stuff."
=========


I write:

=======
Yes, I've gathered that by now.  If you wish to freely remain in the 
opaqueness of partial puzzle dogma, as so many others, and condemn about 70 
percent of the rest of their world's religions for their continuing 
"non-belief in Jesus Christ as sole saviour and lord etc", as "The 
Judeo-Christian Construct Dogma" demands of you, that remains neither my 
fault, nor, hopefully, my problem.  But then again, who knows...
=======


Well, it's been a real exercise, and my fingers are tired.  I figured you 
deserved at least a public reply, and thus, have sat here giving you one.

Thus ends our monthly "Religious Discussion".

I thought it a rather interesting "parley", especially seeing that a huge 
portion of the 1 Billion Christians besides being *mandated* by their own 
"Construct" of having to "condemn" all "non-believers" (just like some 
other religions of earth) to anything but "Paradise", also just happen to 
control the most vast and powerful military arsenal that has, to our 
knowledge, ever been created on God's green Earth.

Sweet dreams, ya'll....

:)





Cheeseburger

- Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.