[Mb-civic] EMAIL WITH A FRIEND

[Ian]

Cheeseburger:

See my comments in blue (at least, I wrote them in blue; I hope they appear as a separate color!).

Peace.

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Ian wrote:

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I was intrigued by one of your comments.  You said: "Spirituality is the only future and that wont come from religion. God or the Gods are playing too many tricks. It can only come from within. We had a chance in the 60's and we were not strong enough to overcome the dark forces.  Now they seem to be on both sides of the aisle."

As a minister, I would be remiss in not asking: have you considered the possibility that the very approach used in the 60s, and that you are suggesting now again - "it can only come from within" - is the very reason WHY you "were not strong enough to overcome the dark forces?"

>From the Judeo-Christian perspective, this "come from within" approach is the very approach that STRENGTHENS the "dark forces" AGAINST the positive 
spirituo-religious forces that might avail against them.
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Let's go over it, one can not fight a "spiritual war" against "darkness" if one is not full of "light" on the inside to begin with.  One *can*, but the internal preparatory "enlightening" only makes one stronger in both the short and long run.  Your premise of such a "judeo-christianic" perspective which entails "the light coming from outside, God, to the inside of a human", continues to eliminate the argument of "free will", which is strewn throughout the bible somewhere.  It is that "free will" from *within* a human that must *first* choose the "light" over the "darkness" for (usually) any help from "God's Power" coming from the exterior to bolster the strength of the interior.  You are confusing "free will" with "faith."  You are correct that "free will" is ultimately the "free will" to accept or reject God (and Christ).  But that is only the beginning.  Once you have "accepted," it is then necessary to have "faith," which is defined as "belief in things unseen and certainty of things hoped for."  This does not, of course, mean that every single thing you hope for will come true: "faith" is also the belief that God knows what He's doing, that He has it all "under control" (within His meaning), and that he knows you better than you know yourself.  You clearly do not believe this.  And this (among other reasons, which I address below) is why your claimed "faith" fails.  Ultimnately, you are not simply choosing "light" over "darkness," but you are choosing God's plans and actions over not only those of "the enemy," but over the actions you might take - and thus expect God to take - in a given situation.  Again, you have clearly not "submitted" yourself to this degree of faith.

Jesus once said something like "if you had the faith of a mustard seed, you could say to the mountain 'be gone' and the mountain would be removed. Such "faith" comes from inside, not from God.  If such internal machinations are not in place to begin with "inside", you can yell at the mountain all day long and most likely "external forces" are not going to help you.  100% incorrect.  Given that the mustard seed is the second smallest seed in the world, Jesus was using this example to show just how little faith even the most "faithful" Christian has, since few (if any) Christians can accomplish the "miracles" that He did.  This was not to "denigrate" believers, but to point out that if they had fully, completely, absolutely submissive and obedient faith, they could do miracles.  Indeed, He added later that, for those who develop such faith, "greater works than Mine will you do."  That said, the faith He was talking about does not come from inside; it comes from (as noted) fully, completely, absolute submission and obedience to God, and God's Will - not your (i.e., human) will.

By the way, I yelled at a mountain all day long and commanded it and it just stood there and stared at me.  I also prayed to Everyone.  God, the Devil, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Jesus, everyone.  Nobody came to even mildly help my mother and father who died of the worst cancer known to mankind and a simple bedsore.  Nobody.  The only one I found standing between the forces of "darkness" and the tragic fates of my people was myself.  Unfortunately, I was just not enough.  Again, because your faith is not submissive and obedient, but "expectant" - i.e., you feel that your faith "entitles" you to God's help in any and every situation in which you ask it - it will fail you.  In addition, the very fact that you were pray to anyone but Christ only adds to the unlikelihood that God will answer your prayers.  Try praying only to Christ - humbly (and I mean humbly), honestly and fervently.  God's Will may still be otherwise than you want, but you are far more likely to have your prayers answered.

All "light" that might appear within the human experience certainly is not born from solely "within", but it is that "inner" "light" that gives us measly humans the strength to fight seemingly invincible forces that apparently surround almost everything good we endeavor to accomplish.  If anything, that accomplishment of any sort of "inner" "light" only pisses off any "dark forces" hanging around as it winds up being more than they bargained for.  Well, sort of.  However, you clearly do not understand how "the enemy" (as "defined" by the Judeo-Christian construct) works.  True, you may win a battle or two against "the forces of darkness."  But the fact that you use your own efforts - instead of relying on God and His Will (and His power) - leaves a huge "hole" in your faith, one that "the enemy" can and will exploit.  Thus, you may "win the battle" but you will most certainly "lose the war."

There is no such thing as "spirituo-religious".  They are 2 separate terms which collide in eternal struggle and opposition.  Not quite.  As noted, "religion" is about laws and behavior, while "faith" is about a relationship with God (and Christ).  However, they are not mutually exclusive; there is a place for both, though the latter is the more important.

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Yes, I know that many (perhaps most) non-believers have a dim view of "religion," due to the way that all of them have been bastardized, co-opted and apostasized.  However, I reiterate that "Religion is about laws and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God (and Christ)".
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Again, Christ, albeit it may be otherwise in reality, has wound up being a "minor figure" in the religions of most of this world's populations who simply do not even consider him as a player in their "faiths".  The "judeo-christianic" religion still remains one of the least populated ones, if we go by population numbers on the planet.  This is probably the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.  Christianity remains the largest religion in the world, though Islam is fast coming up on it.  Thus, even if Christianity were the only religion in which Christ was venerated, you would be incorrect.  However, Islam holds Jesus as the second most Holy figure after Mohammed: although not considered the "Son of God," He is considered God's greatest prophet after Mohammed.  He is mentioned countless times in the Qur'an.  In addition, Mary is the most venerated woman in Islam because she is the mother of Jesus.  As an aside, I am sure you have heard of the Al Aksa Mosque, what is often called the "Dome of the Rock" on the Temply Mount in Jerusalem.  It is the third holiest shrine in Islam.  Do you know what is written - in Arabic - around the top of the inside of the Mosque?  An admonition to worship Jesus and Mary as well as Mohammed.  In the third holiest shrine in Islam.  And you call Jesus a "minor figure?"

Faith is about unzipping your pants and putting your balls on the frying pan.  Sometimes God shows up to "save you", and sometimes he doesn't.  Many times I have found that I myself have to simply take my balls out of the frying pan, tuck them back into my pants, and zip them up.  My "faith" is still there, and yes indeed I do believe in "miracles" (no matter what religion one belongs to) but I remember constantly the old adage of "God helps those who help themselves".  That phrase is not only not Scriptural, but it is actually 180 degrees from it, and is a perfect example of what I am talking about: the dangerously heretical belief that it is our own efforts that avail us.  No!  It is "grace" and our submission to God's Will - and not our own - that avails us.

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In this regard, I, too, have serious concerns and misgivings about what has come to be called "religion."  But that does not change my feeling - and my understanding of my faith - that putting one's faith in oneself and one's "better nature" or "good conscience" is dangerously misguided, and only gives "the enemy" (whomever or whatever you perceive him/it to be) more "fuel for the fire."  It is only when we put our faith in God - and refrain from attempting to use our own efforts (spiritual or otherwise) - that the "dark forces" might be overcome.
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I understand your directly above argument.  However, if I had completely followed it unwaveringly and with blind faith, in several circumstances of my life, I would have died, struck down by the "dark forces", and not be sitting here typing this to you.  No one is saying that common sense and caution are not appropriate.  If you see a car coming at you, simply praying that it doesn't hit you is foolish; you have to jump out of the way.  However, if you are talking about "things spiritual," then all you are saying is that everything is about you.  You forget that everything you have - your body, your mind, your spirit, your very breath - are gifts from God.  You do not "own" anything, so, ultimately, nothing is about you.  You owe everything to God.  If you are then led into a situation in which the "dark forces" might "strike you down," perhaps there is a good reason for it.  It might not seem like a good reason to you.  But "His ways are not our ways," and "Who can understand the mind of God?"  Ultimately, your physical death is nowhere near as important as your spiritual life.  Your spirit inhabits your mortal body for about 80 years - but it inhabits the afterworld for eternity.  Which is more important?  By focusing on this life - indeed, by feeling "entitled" to it, and even second guessing God's Will for you - you endanger yourself spiritually.

The "judeo-christianic" bible is such an interesting thing, depending upon which version you get of it, and excluding the 80 books left out of it upon its "Creation" by the Vatican and the Church of England.  In one verse it will state something like "By faith ye are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast". Yet, in another, it will state "What is faith without works to prove them?"  These two statements are not mutually exclusive.  In fact, the first goes to the very heart of this discussion.  That is, "By faith [belief in God and His Will] ye are saved, and not through works [your own efforts], "lest any man should boast" - which is exactly what you (and others) are doing: "boasting" about how "good" you are, how much "inner goodness" you have, etc.  The second statement - taken in context (since you, like the so-called Christian Right, seem to love taking Scripture out of context to support your position) - simply suggests that you can have all the faith in the world, but if you do not help others, if you do not put that faith into action, your faith alone will not save you.  "Salvation" and "eternal life" are through faith in Christ; but that faith must also be "put into action" just as Christ did.

God is not going to strike down George W. Bush & Gang.  Although I could be wrong.

It is the faith in ourselves and our aspirations toward "making the universe a better place to live" in the midst of this tyranny, death, destruction, suffering, and darkness that strengthens us internally and that allows the inner light to burn fiercely eradicating the illusions and crafts of the "dark forces".  God is not going to the voting polls in one week.  Although I could be wrong.  As I have now made clear, your faith in yourself is exactly what is preventing you from truly reaping the benefits of faith in God and Christ.

Having "the ultimate faith" in one's God could surely not be a bad thing, at least if he was a "good" God.  But "refraining from attempting to use our own efforts (spiritual or otherwise)" in the face of "the dark forces" and instead relying "solely on God", has often, throughout History, proven nothing short of Suicide.  If one, say, could perhaps "trancend" all earthly things and become "enlightened" as say Jesus or Buddha or whomever, then, yes, it might be that all one would have to do to "overcome the dark forces" was sit quietly on your living room furniture and let God do his work.  Again, sitting on one's duff and doing nothing - "relying solely on God" - is anathema to Christianity.  Both faith and works are required - as well as a dose of common sense, including action where action is necessary and/or appropriate.

However, as it says also "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".  Indeed, if one believes in that kind of stuff, we have.

*Many* of us, unfortunately, have not become "totally enlightened" where we can easily and completely put our complete "faith in God" and "the mountain will be removed because we have the mere faith of a mustard seed".  Some of us have found, fortunately and unfortunately, that we must find that "inner light" within ourselves, pick up the gun beside the table which we abhor, and blow the guy's brains out who has broken into our apartment and threatening to slit our wife's and childrens' throats.  I feel very bad for you that this is even a possibility in your world.  You clearly have little understanding of your own faith - if indeed it is the faith you profess.

And that is not to say or even mildly infer that "God" is not on the ball, but rather that he, indeed, often works in "strange ways".

Without the "inner light" and the "exterior extension" of it manifesting in our own works, we often wind up being, as Jesus once described, "neither hot nor cold, nothing I can really work with...".  Again, Scripture out of context.  Jesus was talking about an entire "church" (area).  He was not applying this to individuals, but rather to the entire "church" within a particular city.

Faith in "God" is wonderful.  One must overcome the "inner darkness" before one can often reach out to "God" and "Blind Faith" to begin with.  It is apparently "free will" that "God" often leaves that battle to in the first place.  I'm sure he's there "watching", but I just have a sneaking suspicion that he wants to see what we do before he "steps in".  No!  One does not need to "overcome the inner darkness" before "reaching out to God"; the whole point is to reach out to Him in belief that He will help you overcome that darkness.  Indeed, one shows true "faith" when one reaches out despite that inner darkness.  God "steps in" when you invite Him in - honestly and humbly.

Is it not the true measure of character to be able to overcome by oneself one's own internal demons, or has God just been training us to be faithful chia pets, unable to battle "the dark forces" without first checking which verse is proper to invoke...?  Again, it is not by our own efforts that we can properly "fight the battle"; it is only with through the grace, power and mercy of God that we can ever hope to overcome demons, whether internal or otherwise.

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This does not mean idle worship (pun intended); i.e., simply praying and hoping that things will change.  Certainly, even Christians (and other believers) have an obligation to be active in trying to effect change for the betterment of all people.
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Ah well, hehe, if I had read that directly above paragraph sooner, I could have saved myself the trouble of writing that above dissertation, lol.

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But to suggest that "God or the Gods are playing too many tricks," and that we can - or even should - somehow attempt to hinder God from His work (whether or not we are happy about the outcome of that work: "His ways are not our ways") would seem to engender flagrant arrogance or "pride" - the deadliest of all sins.
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Can you, or anyone, *really* sit there with a straight face and tell me that a 4 year old little beautiful girl who wandered out from her yard and the watchful eye of a parent and got run over by a dump truck was "God's Will" or that "God wanted her in Heaven now" or "Everything happens for a *Reason*", etc etc etc...?  I'll have to disagree.  On such a beautiful planet that various men and women and "dark forces" have managed to turn into a living hell often with so much destruction, suffering, deaths, maimings, deceptions, treachery, you name it, it's here, "God" is obviously just too busy sometimes to watch over every 4 year old child chasing a colored ball out into the street.  A "test"? one might say.........??  True, it might be, or just a laboratory experiment by some invisible ufo aliens or something.  Who knows....  I don't find a dead squashed 4 year old girl an amusing test.  If I had been there, I would have most likely saved her, as God, the Devil, Whomever, obviously just sat there and watched it occur.  Again, you clearly do not understand how "the enemy" (as defined within the Judeo-Christian construct) works.  Or even that it is "the enemy" that is working.  God does not "micromanage" the world.  It would take me far more space and time than we have here to explain the nature of evil within the Judeo-Christian construct.  However, in (very) brief, although God created the universe and everything in it (including the world), Satan ("the enemy") has been the "ruler" of this world since the "creation" of humankind.  Satan's "dominion" over earth is complete: there is nothing that he is not permitted to do.  Satan's primary job is to keep us from believing in God, and thus exercising our free will to accept Him.  As long as Satan can keep a person from believing in God, he is happy, since that means he "wins": that person does not exercise their free will to accept God, and thus their soul is lost to God.  And don't forget that Satan is not only an "angel of light," he is also the smartest, cleverest, most brilliant angel of them all.  He is also the "father of lies," the "great deceiver," etc.  Thus, he will do anything and everything in his power to make you believe that God eithre doesn't exist, or doesn't care, and thus you should not believe in Him.

The death of the 4-year-old girl is tragic.  However, it is Satan that sets up that tragedy, not God.  The fact that God does not step in to prevent every single tragedy that could ever occur does not mean He is not a loving, caring God, or that he is "too busy."  However, as noted, He does not micromanage.  In addition, despite your sarcasm (yet another reason your faith fails you), there may well be a reason why God does not step in.  It is not for us - as mortal humans - to understand God's Will.  It is for us to follow it, if we are faithful.  That said, of course you would try to save her.  So would anyone with a heart and a conscience.  Again, this does not mean that God does not have a heart or a conscience, but simply that we, as mortal humans, cannot possibly fathom what that heart and conscience are - even if they seem "lacking" from our miniscule perspective.

Note that there are times when God steps in, and yet we do not see it.  Let me give you an example.  After 9/11, many people were asking, "How could God let this happen?  How could He let 3,000 innocent people die like that?  Where was He?"  First, it was Satan, not God, who "allowed it to happen."  And where was God while Satan let 3,000 innocent people die?  Simple.  He was helping to save the other 25,000 people in those buildings.  Yet we "miss" this because, as humans, we focus on death rather than life.  Yes, 3,000 died.  And it could easily have been worse.  But it wasn't, because God helped 25,000 people live.

Seeking "inner light" and acting on such quests "externally" is not necessarily "hindering God from his works", but rather pulling our share finally, as we were intended to do in the first place before we got stuck in this pit of lies, illusions, and deceptions on this world of death.  Again, "pulling our share" means "using our own efforts" - which is anathema to the Christian construct.  Yes, again, it is important to put our faith into action.  But it is not about "pulling our share."  Indeed, Jesus clearly suggests otherwise: "Come to me, all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest...For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

"Someone" is obviously playing "Tricks" from "The Top".  If it is not "God", then, for one reason or another, he is at least allowing it to occur.  Again, it is Satan who has rulership over the world.  If you want to see this as God "allowing it to occur," so be it.  But, again, unless and until your faith is submissive and obedient to God and His will - and not to what you want, expect or think should be - your faith will continue to fail you.

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Peace.
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Indeed.  If Peace were only truly possible.  What a thing that would be.  But apparently God seldom has use for Peace either, and has left that job also up to us.

I'm sure, Ian, that "he" is standing around somewhere, and that, yes, maybe you are right, maybe this is some gigantic beyond our ability to conceive test or something, but I can't conceive of a God that would let a 4 year old be squashed by a dump truck chasing a pretty ball, nor a priest who would get up at a funeral and say "It was God's will, be comforted, she is in Heaven now with him, God works in mysterious ways", and not crack up laughing at the preposterousness of such blasphemy toward The Truth.  We may not be able to see "The Truth" as good as God can, but I'll be d*mned if I'm going to sit on a bus bench and watch while a 4 year old girl gets squashed by a truck, and rely on "my faith solely" to save her *ss.  Again, no one is suggesting that you rely "solely on your faith"; as noted, when action is required or appropriate, it is obviously expected.  As for the priest at the funeral, if he said those words and did not believe them (considered them "preposterous"), then he should be defrocked.  As for "The Truth," what "truth" are you speaking of?  Yours - from your puny human subjective perspective of what "truth" might or might not be, or indeed, what you might want it to be?  Or God's - which is truth from its source?  Once again, your own words condemn you, and show why your "faith" fails you time and time again.

Surely, along these lines, one's "Faith" surely strengthens and guides one.

It is that "inner light" that is the base of the salvation of one's soul, however, that brings the "forces of evil" to their knees, and gives true character to the role of suffering and death we humans have been thrust into.  "Salvation" is solely and exclusively from faith in Christ as Messiah.  And it is only through faith that the "forces of evil" can even be confronted, much less beaten.

In "the 60's", it was that seeking and cultivation of that "inner light" that "almost changed the world and made it a better place to live in".  Balderdash.  Your statement - which reiterates Michael's - is the entire reason I wrote my first e-mail.  As I posited, it was the very "inner light" approach that was wrong, and caused its own failure.  And please, let's be honest with ourselves and each other: it did not "almost change the world"; it had a minor effect on a relatively small section of it.  I loved the 60s too.  But your phony "revisionism" is unbecoming - to say nothing of inaccurate.

If I were you, while promoting "Faith In God", I would *definitely* be promoting that "inner light" stuff as well, as, really, how could we go wrong if we have both of them at work.......  For obvious reasons - most of which can be inferred from my comments herein - I will most definitely not be promoting "inner light stuff."

p.s.:  In "the 60's", it wasn't "Faith In God" that the Right Wing Of America saw in various people, it was that "Inner Light", that "Enlightenment" beginning to take form and shine forth.  They recognized it for what it was, an actual intellectual and spiritual revolution heading straight toward "The Light".  They squashed it like a bug.  And even today "the 60's" remains "A Joke" in many circles, because it was specifically designed to be forever defamed as such by those who had no 
interest whatsoever in seeing such "realms of enlightenment" taking root in a society which they had been training to be good consumers, uneducated voters, and blind advocates of authoritarian pecking orders.  Pot smoking hippies flower children tree hugging socialist commie long haired irresponsible over-sexed athiest gypsies.  We bear those "scars", and jabs, and labels, even today, some of us.

And it remains =America's= tragic loss for being so faithful to what they are told to believe, and one reason we are in the predicaments we enjoy so greatly in this shining bright modern age.

F*ck the Right Wing.  They screwed America and all its Children.

I just had to add that last one because I'm in such a good mood.

:)

Cheeseburger

- Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.
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