[Mb-civic] ... Ian

[Ian]

Al Baraka ("Blessing" indeed!):

Thank you for this.  See my comments below in another color (I hope...)

Peace!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alexander Harper 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 2:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] ... Ian


  Thanks Ian - no disagreement.

  1. Obviously propagating The Word as St Paul and the other apostles did during the 1st Century was a very different kettle of fish to what it had become 3, 5, 10 let alone 21 centuries later. The world was far less populated and the impact of these guys arriving out of the blue in those relatively remote towns and settlements, where there was not much happening day to day would probably have been much greater than it would be today when there is so much more and sophisticated competition for  people's attention. That is not to say that they were not competing with other creeds and cults and the fact that Christianity lasted the course while many other contemporary ones did not shows what a wise old bird Gamaliel was. If Jesus were to return today (God would probably make him an Iraqi) I think that he and the apostles would obviously, in the modern context, adopt modern means of communicating the Word, even if the basic message was the same. Maybe it could still be done by word of mouth but sooner or later, as sure as eggs are eggs, if it looked like catching on, politicians and other power hungry folk would want to hijack it and 'organise' it to further their own agenda. This has happened with all successful religions and political philosophies (viz. marxism, a perfectly inoffensive and decent hypothesis of how we might live per se, almost immediately hijacked by the likes of Lenin and Stalin with appalling consequences).

  It is ironic that you make this comparison.  Most people are not aware that Marx and Engels stole the basis for "communism" from the New Testament - and I'm not kidding at all.  The two basic underlying principles (though there are others) of communism are that the "state" (or centralized group) controls all manufacturing, distribution, etc., and the concept of "from each according to his ability to produce; to each according to his need."  The basic premise of communism (which is an economic system, not a political one) is to, among others things, eliminate the hording of "personal wealth," and thereby create economic equality.

  Given this, consider the following passage from the New Testament: "Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common...Nor was there anyone among them who lacked: for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need." (Acts 4:32-35)  Here, the apostles stand in for the "state."  No one "hordes" anything, or has more than they actually need.  And, in a direct lift by Marx, distribution is made "to each as anyone had need."  Keep in mind that Marx had studied theology (and, like Darwin, toyed with becoming a minister), and was thus very familiar with Scripture.  In this regard, it is beyond ironic that Marx and Engels "stole" communism from the New Testament (in some cases word for word), and then turned around and called faith/religion "the opium of the masses."

  Of course there is no 'business plan' nor 'organigram' in the New Testament. Jesus wanted to show us how to live good and godly lives and help others to do the same by example and by 'spreading the word' just as you say. Apart from the (admittedly quite large) difference between your belief that Christ is the only route to salvation and other MB-civic readers' belief that there are many equally valid routes there there does not seem to be anything much dividing you. Oh, by the way, what do you think Jesus meant by "In my Father's house there are many mansions"?  My understanding (from my own reading, and that of others) is twofold.  First, "My Father's house" is a euphemism for Heaven.  Thus, He is comparing Heaven to a house, and the rooms in that house to mansions - i.e., suggesting that they are huge.  Given the normal size of a home in those days (sometimes a single large living space with a few small offshoots), He was suggesting that even a room in Heaven is larger than an entire home on earth.  There is also an irony in His statement.  Given that a mansion is larger than a house, the suggestion that many "mansions" fit in a "house" - rather than the opposite (which would be more likely) - is a way of "humbling" the word "house" with respect to the Father.  That is, God lives in a "house," while those who get to Heaven will live in "mansions" - i.e., they will be massively rewarded for their faith in God and their works in His behalf.  There are additional interpretations, and I do not pretend that my understanding is correct, much less the only one.  It does, however, provide a supportable interpretation.

  Of course I understand the pain that you must feel over what is being done and has been done in the name of the religion you love and believe in. No one, who has read anything you have written previously could believe otherwise.  As with my words to Lyle, you cannot know how much I appreciate the empathy.  Thank you.

  Keep up the good work. Perhaps you ought to become a missionary in Boulder.  I may be in Denver in the early part of 2005.  If so, I will let you know, and perhaps we can meet.

  AlBaraka 

  (which incidentally means 'Blessing' in arabic. It is not actually my name although I would not mind if it were and do not mind being addressed by it.)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Ian" 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
  Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] ... Ian
  Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:26:29 -0500



  Al Baraka:

  Thank you for your understanding and reasoned comments.

  You ask: "How do you massively propagate the 'word' without any organization?"  Two brief comments.

  First, Paul and the apostles and disciples apparently had no problem doing so: among them, they propagated the "word" to almost everyone within a thousand miles (or more) in every direction, including, ultimately, the entire Roman Empire - all without phones, faxes, the Internet or even rapid transportation.

  Second, your question brings up a widely believed fallacy of Christianity: the entire concept of "organization."  There is nothing in the New Testament - in Jesus' words or actions, or in those of Paul or the apostles or disciples - to suggest that Christianity was ever supposed to be "organized" at all (in the sense that we think of "organized religion").

  The "church" was a body of people, not a building or organization.  For example, when Paul wrote to the "church" at Corinth (or Ephesus, etc.), he was writing to a group of people who met in what we would now call a "home church"; i.e, meetings were held in the homes of church "leaders" (those who had been taught by Paul et al), and Paul's letters and epistles were sent directly to them, to be read to the group.

  In this regard, it is clear from Scripture that propagation of the "word" was always supposed to be done interpersonally or in small groups.  Indeed, in sending off the apostles and disciples to "preach the Gospel," Jesus tells them, in essence, to go "door to door."  He further tells them that if a person or household is not interested in hearing the "word," they should "shake the dust from their feet" and move on to the next house: i.e., there is to be no attempt to "force" it or "over-persuade."

  You - and Lyle, Cheeseburger, and others - cannot possibly know or understand the depth of my sadness (and that of others who share my understanding - and there are many) at what has become of "Christianity," which, at its core, is a beautiful, loving, even "logical" and "common sense" way of living, and interacting with others.  However, all we can do is what the Scripture suggests - to live our lives in according to the ten precepts of Jesus' ministry (love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, truth), and share our understanding of Christianity on an interpersonal, one-to-one basis with others (including, especially, "misguided" Christians) to try to get them to see the essence of what it is, and the depth of fallacy and corruption that have become part and parcel of it.

  Peace.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Alexander Harper 
    To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
    Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:34 PM
    Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] ... Ian


    Good on you, Ian. I do not see how there can be any rebuttal to any of that, well, at least it is pretty close to how I would wish to interpret and carry through the teachings of Christ, if I could. Of course I understand the beef that Lyle and Cheesebuger (no pun intended) and others have with organised religion because daily we suffer watching it 'taken by knaves to make a trap for fools' (pace Rudyard K.) and then find ourselves on the receiving end of the actions of mean-spirited hypocrites, bigots, fanatics and cheats purporting to act in the name of God, Allah, Jahwe, Krishna etc. It is obviously hard to prevent organised religion being hijacked by the 'wrong sort of people' for the wrong ends, which is why , ever since any of the great world religions came into being, every generation has produced a saint, ascetic or (literally) protestant urging people to establish their own dialogue/communion with God because of the corruption/inefficiency/irrelevance of the official, organised religion of the time. On the other hand how do you massively propagate the 'word' without any organisation? I guess you just do your best, accepting that in any human organisation there will always be elements antithetical to the raison d'être of that organisation and just to try that much harder every time you come across a rotten apple. There is nothing like evil for bringng out the best in (some) people. I have started to ramble; I don't know how I ended up here and now I have no time to explain myself further. Bugger.

    Al Baraka






    Lyle:

    Blessings and Peace.  Because it is so basically...fundamental both to whom I am and to what I believe to be a critical element in any continuing discourse on both the immediate subject (faith and religion) and the subject of this group (effecting change by bringing as many people "into the fold" of people-based socio-politics), let me see if I can put this in a way that will not leave room for misinterpretation.

    I believe strongly in the "dogma" and "doctrine" of the Judeo-Christian construct as I believe (from both my own readings and those of others) it was meant to be; i.e., not what it became, but as Jesus lived, spoke and preached it.  Two of my four mentoring ministers refer to this as "primitive Christianity."  It has also been called "true Christianity" (a loaded phrase if ever there was one) and "essential Christianity."  And I believe in that "dogma" and "doctrine" not only because I believe it to be an excellent basis for living and interacting with others (again, when practiced "correctly"), but because it has worked for me: I have seen and felt the benefits, gifts, etc. that living that "dogma" and "doctrine" - that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph - have bestowed on me.  In other words, I do not believe in or live that "dogma" and "doctrine" in a "blind" manner.

    For whatever reasons, you do not believe in the "reality" of that "dogma" and "doctrine" and its application to every day life.  You have called it "tired," "trite" and other dismissive terms.

    However, simply because (i) you have personal issues with that "dogma" and "doctrine," (ii) it is admittedly exceptionally difficult to actually live that "dogma" and "doctrine" on a day to day, much less moment to moment, basis, and (iii) that "dogma" and "doctrine" have become associated with historical atrocities; the corruption of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" religion; and a dangerously narrow, conservative "religious" (and political)mindset, this does not mean that the underlying principles of that "dogma" and "doctrine" are not "sound," and maybe even "correct" (another dangerously loaded term).

    In this regard, I was not being "defensive."  I only responded at all because your insinuation (that my beliefs somehow make me a closet racist) was particularly heinous.

    Nor am I "angry," since it is simply not in my nature to be so.  Rather, I am saddened that you feel the need to denigrate my beliefs in order to support your own.  Calling my beliefs "trite" and "tired" is, as Andrew Carnegie might say, not the way to make friends and influence people.  You will note that, although I may disagree with your beliefs, I have never denigrated them, much less used pejorative terms to describe them.

    Consider the following hypothetical situation.  A person -specifically, a "spiritual seeker" - who does not know either of us happens upon Civic and monitors it for a few days.  They read our respective posts.  They "watch" our language, approach and attitude.  Based on this, whose "faith" do you think they will find more attractive?  One that includes insults, invective, denigration and dismissiveness?  Or one that includes courtesy, calm and reasoned discourse?

    Note that I am not suggesting that I am "better" than you.  Or even that my "beliefs" are "better" than yours.  But the single most important way that others may be "drawn" to our beliefs is by example - by how we live them: in our daily lives, in our deeds and, yes, in our words.

    In this regard, it is disingenuous, if not a bit hypocritical, to talk to me about "love" when you are suggesting that I am a racist.  It is disingenuous to talk to me about "acceptance" when you are calling my beliefs "trite" and "tired."  And, with specific regard to Civic and its "mission," it is particularly disingenuous, if not self-deluding, to believe that you are contributing positively to that mission when you continue to take a position that alienates so many potential allies as a result of an almost complete dismissal of their beliefs.

    If your offer of love is genuine, I accept it.  And, indeed, return it.  However, I would be very careful not to bandy that word about too off-handedly.  After all, anyone can talk about love.  But real love reflects other important virtues - some of which seem absent in your attitude and approach.

    Forgive me, but I cannot resist:

    "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never fails."  [1 Cor 13:4-8]

    Peace.

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