[Mb-civic] Anti-Christs

[Ian]

Lyle:

As noted in my response to Richard, the "spirit of antichrist" (small "a"; not the same as the person of Antichrist, capital "A") is, indeed, among us.

However, the Antichrist (i.e., he who will be indwelled by Satan at some point) may or may not be "among us."  Indeed, there is great speculation on this issue, especially among "students" of prophecy, and particularly the "end times" prophecies, of which I have been one for over 20 years.  [N.B.: According to Scripture, both direct and inferred, the Antichrist will arise via the politico-economic system, and will be, by all accounts, a truly "dazzling" person, in numerous ways, including, particularly, his powers of persuasion, facilitation and diplomacy.]

When the Scripture refers to "many antichrists," it is noting, in a broad way, that anyone who preaches a doctrine antithetical to the "Judeo-Christian construct" is, by definition, anti-"Christ."  It is not inferring that there are numerous Antichrists (capital "A").  Thus, "antichrists" (small "a") have been with us all along, though their "works" have not been as "pandemic" as they are today.

Other than this, I agree with your basic premises re what Jesus actually did, said, and did not do or say (or, indeed, specifically proscribed).  In this regard, "organized religion" was definitely not something He suggested at any point.  It was unquestionably more important to Him that people "be" like Him - i.e., live a truly "Christ-like" life, adhering to the nine basic precepts of his ministry (love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessnes, service) - than for people to create a "religion" around Him.  Indeed, as I have noted ad nauseum, "religion is about laws and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God (and Christ)."  In this regard, although there is a place for the former, Jesus - as suggested by His own actions and words - would most certainly agree that the latter is the more important of the two.  Indeed, just as Cheeseburger suggested that "freedom" is more important than "peace" (with which I do not always agree) - and specifically that "peace" is an outgrowth of "freedom" more often than the reverse (with which I do agree) - I believe that "right thiking and living" (i.e., "laws and behavior") are more likely an outgrowth of "faith" than the reverse.

What continually puzzles me about humanity is that they fail to see the logic and common sense in this - whether from a practical (i.e., atheist or non-believer) point of view, or, more obviously, from a spiritual point of view.

Anyway, even where I have quibbles, your positions are taken very well, and I applaud your sincerity and passion.

Peace.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lyle K'ang 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:36 PM
  Subject: [Mb-civic] Anti-Christs


  The anti-christ is among us...do you refute that?!

  No matter how good a christian you or I are doesn't matter, except that we hope to go on and gain disciples for the church. Somewhere along the line, we'll get our gold star. Is that your works? Or HIS? We want to better the world?

  Yes, there are hippocrates and mis-guided evil-doers.

  Here's where we basically disagree.

  Release your pride...

  In the early days of the church whom Jesus did not say to build, there were these groups of people who felt it necessary to build a spiritual church...nothing wrong with their motives, nothing at all.

  Priests and bible scholars translated and translated, regurgitated, and produced more translations. This is where the text has been compromised.
  Priests have died professing their belief to 'The Most Wonderous One', for what, they died horrible deaths? Are they next too 17 virgins in heaven or hell or where ever did they go too?

  Some of us live with the old testament as truth, irregardlous of what Jesus says in the new. Why is that?

  To say that the church with it's self imposed authority, rules and regulations is correct when Jesus didn't say to do that, is again missing the point.

  The true church was and is 'man-made' by Peter by Joseph Smith and by others professing the truth. The only thing that is real is your dying fish in the oceans and lakes. The waters of a so called baptism of cleansing. Wake up-to the hardest thing you have ever done in your life. Refute what you believe in-cleanse your mind through your own processes, then call upon him or her that will give you the truth!

  The God you call a God is in your image and what ever good deeds you do that is great for you, your following, and your God. If you pray for world redemption, that is your doing. If the world is peaceful because of your prayers, your group and others, it has been heard by a higher authority-not necessarily our God.

  The church has been and unfortunately, I will say this again-it is in many circumstances the creator of misfits, arrogance, harmful personalities, and molders of the right circumstances that bring about the correct mixture of anti-christs.

  There are many-not just one of them. Sure I would do the same as you, Ian as you are doing-so did the Buddhist monks as they watched their fellow monks get slaughtered by another government and religion made by man but claiming to be of their own God, therefore, the 'in the know' or right!

  Don't get me wrong my friend, to hold something so close is to first refute, push it away, refuse to call it by name...then when the sweet breeze of spiritual warmth flows over you...we all will 'see' a bit clearer than you or I are doing today.

  To question everything on a schedule is healthy, wise and keeps us from dogma and laziness. We don't have a magic ticket-non of us do-we're the same being tested how well we keep our promises we made before we came to earth to help provide and direct its direction-but does it really need you or I? 

  What you or someone else provides is the truce we all made to our True Parents before we were born of the flesh.

  Just be careful- a dark spirit arises-that is easy to notice, but a bright spirit arises and you jump? Maybe, it isn't clarity at all, maybe it's a shroud of hypocrisy that blinds us all (for instance, the evangelicals). Know who we speak to. If you are of Jesus Christ, then by the authority of Jesus Christ, speak and I will know through the quickening of the spirit whether you come of him or the disbeliever.

  The Eagle Spirit or the Kachina Spirit or The Hawai'ian Kahuna Spirits are no different. These are the places where the language was made different and hard to comprehend. 

  They all were visited over this vast planet by the same person, some believe during the 'resurrection'. Was it The Jesus or other Jesus Christs or many Jesus Christs that come of Allah, The True Believer, God, or Ellohem. 

  Is our own ever-widening spiritual hunger to know a detriment, would we be better off without knowing?!

  Again, the church-because it is man-made creates disharmonies, and dark-shadow spirits. Are you a warrior for the light or a defender of the anti-christs?! 

  I can say for a surety that I want to do good but once, I was asked to marry a couple but I refused because I was not as clean as 'The Most Magnificient!' 

  I know who you are, and I know you know who you are, but I mention this just to finish out my story and to show how easy it is to become engulfed with misfortune, lies, and be the steward of The Unbelievable Lies. 

  Lastly,

  It is easy to become a preacher, and it is hard to know where humility starts and where we belong in that critical mix. Why? Because we are human and prone to mistakes, so keep your inner-eye and circles of spiritual angels' always talking about the good and the death around you-hopefully we are all winners!

  Lyle K'ang
  Enterprise Insights: 
  SiloManagement Is The Death Knell of Business...
  http://www.SiloManagement.com

  Please note: message attached





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  Kyle:

  Blessings and Peace.  I just wanted to respond briefly to a couple of your comments.

  First, you say: "To call someone wrong about speaking out on dark shadows, which I believe Michael Butler spoke of, and to say it is not religion that causes these dark shadows, is basically infantile in spiritual matters."

  You misunderstand.  I was not calling Michael "wrong" for "speaking out on dark shadows."  I was pointing out that it is historically inaccurate to claim (as Michael seemed to be doing) that those dark shadows were "created" by organized religion.  After all, would you seriously claim that "evil," "evil" people, "dark shadows," etc. did not predate organized religion?  As I noted, organized religion bears its responsibility for not fighting those shadows, and perhaps even for exacerbating them.  But organized religion did not create those shadows.  Any claim to the contrary is historically insupportable.

  You mention the Crusades, noting that "Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by Christians!"  Sadly, any faith/religion can be "hijacked" by individuals or groups and, equally sadly, there are too many "believers" all too willing to follow these corrupt individuals or groups.  This has, again sadly, been true of all faiths/religions (or at least the overwhelming majority of them) since their inceptions.  We see this right now not only vis-a-vis the so-called "Christian Right" and the "evangelical movement," but even moreso in Islam, where a handful of corrupted mullahs (and others, like OBL) have "hijacked" Islam by interpreting it through a narrow, radical fundamentalist view.

  That said, it should be pointed out that the New Testament is the only underlying "religious" text of any of the "major" religions that has not one word suggesting violence against others.  The Old Testament has plenty of violence - both historical and suggested in its teaching (stoning, etc.), as does the Qur'an (though not nearly so much as the media et al are leading us to believe).

  Indeed, one of the major aspects of Jesus' ministry was to point out that it was the "spirit" of the law that was important, not the "letter" of the law - including all those Old Testament admonitions to stone people to death, etc.  We  all - believers and not - know the story of the townspeople who were about to stone an adultress to death, and Jesus' comment that "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

  The underlying precepts of Christianity - i.e., those lived, taught and preached by Jesus - are love, peace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service.  True, it is well nigh impossible to live up to these virtues, even basically, much less moment to moment.  And true also that there are  individuals and small groups who have taken Scripture out of context to support violence (e.g., the Crusades, Inquisition, etc.), and too many who have been misguided enough to follow them.  And true again that there are still those who take Scripture out of context (e.g., the so-called "Christian Right," which, like the Moral Majority before it, is neither) to support narrow, unloving, unforgiving and, ultimately, un-Christian viewpoints.

  However, none of this negates the intrinsic value - the essential (in its literal term "essence of") goodness, even "correctness" (in many instances) - of Christianity in its "primitive" form (i.e, prior to being bastardized and corrupted by "organized religion"), and the values - both spiritual/moral and temporal/practical - it teaches, and their applicability to everyday life.

  Finally, as you well know, I am not your "average" Christian: I have been called (by my mentoring ministers) a "true" Christian: i.e., I do not follow the "church," or the disciples (though they have their place), or the apostles (though they have their place), or even Paul (though he has his place).  I practice, preach and teach what Jesus did and said.  After all, it seems a matter of obvious logic and common sense that if someone is going to call themselves a "Christ"-ian, the first, most important aspect is that they truly "follow" Christ by living a "Christ-like" life.

  I would certainly agree with you that the vast majority of people who call themselves "Christians" would not know real "Christ"-ianity if it bit them in the ear; that they follow a "religion" rather than a "faith," and that that "religion" was, as you infer, largely "created" by "men" - some (if not many) of whom were corrupted by power from the earliest days of the "compiling" of the New Testament.

  I accept that I may be one in a million (or more...).  However, that said, my approach to misguided Christians - to try to show them (by example, through Scripture, etc.) that they have been misled by "organized religion," and that they are not actually practicing "Christ"-ianity, and to help them live a truly Christ-like life - will have (indeed, I would wager, has had) more effect on such people than all the vitriol, vituperation, condemnation, negativity and venom that many on this board express.

  Indeed, even if some (or even much) of that vitriol, etc. is warranted - i.e., even if organized religion deserves whatever harsh words it gets - all the negativity, vitriol, etc. expressed here does absolutely nothing to contribute to any form of helpful dialogue, and in fact only serves to hinder it.

  Peace.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Lyle K'ang 
    To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
    Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:13 AM
    Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] kyle i think you and me should take on cheeseburger andbaker in a tag match


    Richard Hasse,

    This is for you-I write to you and if others find it offensive, they too have many steps to climb.

    Hey guy! Guess what-I haven't paid much attention to any of you lately. I'm on the street corners and phone banks doing my thing for Kerry. 

    Brief action:
    I did watch the one-sided discussion about TRUTH on Religion by our own Masters. I wonder what you guys are really doing for the American Fascist Movement now in full bloom? Who follows it? Some of you guys sound just like real underground infiltrators-pretty soon, we'll start calling you followers of Hitlerism-graduating beyond Mussolinism and his favorite toy of governmental bedding down with sloppy corporate sex partners.

    People that just sit around and pretend they're important by agreeing with everybody are a dime a dozen-buddy!

    Just recently on this board there was discussion about a special venue with a religious flare. I popped in just briefly to 'see' what my good friend Ian was up too.

    Frankly, I was dissapointed in the rhetoric on the way the religion discussion grew which later formulated into nothing. The conclusion was obvious and short-sighted as well. Sorry-You Guys are excluding experience from a belief system.
    I was hoping for so much more-I did think that for a moment the participants would have allowed their conscious thought to articulate a more poignant stance than the one taken-it was frankly old fashioned, tired and simply based on a faith system that has not proven much if anything, throughout history.

    Anybody, with the right tools can raise the vibratory level to heal a person. Healing has no boundaries, nor religious connotations. Religion is man made. Spirit is free! Spirit is the healer not a religion! To call someone wrong about speaking out on dark shadows, which I believe Michael Butler spoke of and to say it is not religion that causes these dark shadows, is basically, infintile in spiritual matters.

    Religion is a belief system and not immune to darkness...Crusades?! Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by Christians! What are Christians anyway??? Not very good-never have been, never will. I believe the White Man-will very soon have a blood debt to pay, ALL his own! 

    But side-stepping history momentarily, all peoples on this planet have condemned his own kind with the exception, I believe, the Hopi Indians, and others I'm not aware of. Frankly, what say you? Do you know who else has not condemned their own kind?

    I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spread pearls at the feet of swine. I've been there, I've seen evidence of what I speak off and I am not repeating for sake of definition, about what Jesus and your religion is supposed to be like.

    Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. How are we [you] treating the Palestinians today?
    Hunk-Dory? So-so! Let's be like the Christian fundamentalists, keep the jews around because without them The Last Battle of Armagedeon just won't be, will it? OK-I'm being a bit boring I know.

    There are dark shadows that eminate from the Bishop, the Cardinals, the Priests, The present President of the U.S., ad nauseum for goodness sake! Christianity has been a dead movement for so long now. Ignorance is the new religion! If Jesus or ???? favored a single man-made religion, what's up with that anyway? When the truth comes out of the Bible and speaks of confounded tongues of the world, there is still no evidence that Christianity is a favored religion, except through zealots! 

    Too many scales over the eyes keeps one from experiencing one's own life!

    The hopes that people can shed their scales of ignorance and self importance to sensitize themselves to others and their past journeys, is to learn real truth! I can only say that if we were reborn a hundred times more-I would still hold true to the things I have witnessed, and know for a surety-that many prophets are called by different names and are throughout the world now!

    To talk of shallow, misguided hopes about a Jesus (their were many named Jesus), that may come back is giving up on your own powers to be healers unto your own nation. It's as though you will your mind to be lazy!

    Good Luck! Go For IT!

    Lyle K'ang
    Enterprise Insights: 
    SiloManagement Is The Death Knell of Business...
    http://www.SiloManagement.com

    Please note: message attached





----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    lol


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    Mb-civic mailing list
    Mb-civic at islandlists.com
    http://www.islandlists.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mb-civic



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Mb-civic mailing list
  Mb-civic at islandlists.com
  http://www.islandlists.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mb-civic
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.islandlists.com/pipermail/mb-civic/attachments/20041102/7a3419a2/attachment.html