[Mb-civic] COME ON GUYS

Tue Nov 2 19:29:14 PST 2004

Richard:

Please forgive me: I am apparently not making myself clear.

I do not disagree that there are dark forces in organized religion.  However, the "dark forces" - i.e., "evil" as we think of it - did not originate with organized religion, since, as noted, "evil" and "evil" ("bad") people far predate organized religion.

That said, in addition to the lack of any serious attempt to fight those "dark forces" - and thus tacitly allowing, if not exacerbating them - "dark forces" have, indeed, insinuated themselves into organized religion.  In Scripture, this is called the "spirit of antichrist (small "a"; not the same as the person of Antichrist, capital "A").  The "spirit of antichrist" is the demonic spirit (one of the strongest in Satan's army) that causes division within the "church" itself - "church" being defined not as a building or a particular denomination, but as the "body (i.e., people) of Christ").

The power of this particular demonic spirit is has been growing steadily, and increasingly rapidly, for the past three or four decades, and is now rampant.  As an aside, this was prophecied for the period leading up to the so-called "end times" (a period which is not defined anywhere in Scripture, and thus may be much longer than many evangelicals assume...)  Even so, it is one of the saddest things to watch for those who see it - not simply from the non-believers perspective (i.e., just more proof that organized religion sucks), but from the perspective that it continues to give a bad name to "Christianity," even when the underlying precepts of the faith are overwhelmingly positive, and the majority of Christians are basically good people.

And, yes, there are heavenly forces as well.  And although they continue to "fight the good fight," the "dark forces" are (prophetically) "emergent" at this time, and are likely to be so for the foreseeable future.  (As an aside, this is neither "defeatism" nor "fatalism."  It comes from a particular understanding of Scripture, and, to many Christians, simple "is.")

Of course, I "root for our side" all the time, and "fight the good fight of faith" continuously.  Indeed, I think everyone here - even the non-believers and the skeptics - would agree that we all root for the "better angels of our nature."

Peace.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: richard haase 
  To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 11:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] COME ON GUYS

  see i dont know ian
  i think there are dark forces in organized religion
  i also think there are obviously heavenly ones as well
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ian 
    To: mb-civic at islandlists.com 
    Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:11 AM
    Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] COME ON GUYS

    Richard (Paul, Cheeseburger et al):

    Thank you for this; it helps alot.

    Apparently, the problem is that people around here use words or phrases and don't stop to consider the actual "definition" of those words and phrases.  Thus, some of these discussions get bogged down in what some might call "semantics," but which are actually much more specific.

    Michael used the phrase "dark forces" and claimed that they "came from organized religion."  I can only assume that by "dark forces," he was referring to the phrase that Cheeseburger and I were discussing prior thereto.  I then stated that the "dark forces" do not come from organized religion, but that organized religion may indeed be responsible for their continued existence, and even their exacerbation.

    The phrase "dark forces" as used by Cheeseburger and myself was clearly intended to define "evil" and "darkness" in a specific way: I clearly understood that phrase to infer what the Judeo-Christian construct calls "Satan" or "the enemy," and the "forces of darkness" that he commands.  It is not relevant whether Cheeseburger believes in Satan; rather, it is important to realize that this was the clear understanding of what I was speaking of - and what Cheeseburger understood - when the phrase "dark forces" was used.

    In that regard, Michael remains incorrect.  The "dark forces" did not come from organized religion; they were extant long before religion became "organized"; "Satan" and the "dark forces" (per the Judeo-Christian construct, which is what it is clear I have been referring to consistently) were around "at the beginning."  As noted, I freely accept that "organized religion" has not exactly been diligent in taking on those forces, and, indeed, may be exacerbating them both by its lack of action against them, and by its own "behavior" vis-a-vis the way some (and perhaps much) of it has been bastardized, perverted, corrupted, etc.

    As I have stated before, I do not support the "mainstream" heirarchical churches - especially the Catholic church, which is, as I have stated ad nauseum, the most apostate, if not heretical, of all the mainstream churches - for the very reason that they are dangerously apostate.  However, to claim that the "dark forces" - as defined in my discussion with Cheeseburger - "come from" organized religion is simply incorrect.

    Cheeseburger and others are unarguably correct that the vast majority of mainstream heirarchical organized religion has little if anything to do with what Jesus did, said, preached and taught.  I have never suggested otherwise.  However, it is important to understand the difference - which is not semantic - between the idea that "evil" emanated "from" organized religion, and the understanding that, spirituo-historically, this simply is not, and cannot be, the case, since "evil" and the "dark forces" predate "organized religion."

    Paul Korda said: "Unfortunately [faith] was capitalized on by those wishing to dominate others by using their superstition to use them as soldiers, benefactors, and slaves to their control."  He adds: "On the other hand, though many organised religions have undoubtably helped and supported those in need, those same religions have tainted themselves by their use of power over the innocent."

    I agree with both of those statements.

    Similarly, Cheeseburger says: "Just about everyone and their dog knows these days (actually, they don't, because they're still too fucking brainwashed by "Organized Religion") that 
    from the inception of "Organized Religion" itself, beside all the "good stuff" that may have come from it, MANY of the Top People (you remember them, the priests, bishops, kings, popes, etc) have used "Organized Religion" for their own personal, political, and financial reasons and gain."

    Again, I agree with this statement, and have never suggested otherwise.  Indeed, it is all these things (and others) that have given Chistianity a "bad name" - one it would not have gotten had Christ's actual life and teachings been followed; i.e., had "men" not been corrupted by power and turned Christianity into something it was not, and was never meant to be.

    Cheeseburger adds: "Even within the various "Denominations" of Christianity itself, many of them basically hate each other, and *know* that, for the most part, anyone but themselves are "going to Hell".  The Baptists =normally= do NOT invite the Catholics, nor their Priests, to come and have "fellowship", nor, God help us, preach an actual sermon.  And the list of THAT goes on forever, as even Christianity itself remains 
    in opposition to itself if you "do not belong to our specific denomination".

    This is what the Scripture calls the "spirit of antichrist" (which is not the same as "Antichrist," the person): the fractionalization and division of the "church" (i.e., the "body of Christ"(ians)).  In fact, its pervasiveness in Christianity has actually worsened, and is of great concern and sadness to those of us within the faith who have the wisdom to discern the "falseness" of "organized religion," and the rifts it creates within itself.

    Cheeseburger goes on to say that: "I believe one of the FURTHEST things from God's mind when he woke up one day was NOT to create "Organized Religion".  In fact, it most likely 
    remains one of the most hated things on his list."

    Again, I completely agree with this statement.  Indeed, within the original meaning of Christ's teachings (and that of the apostles and disciples), "organized religion" is anathema to the original teachings/precepts that Jesus espoused.  Thus, Cheeseburger is more correct than he knows when he says that it is "one of the most hated things on His list."  It is.

    Anyway, I will leave it there, since this is getting longer than I had wanted it to be.

    Despite the somewhat overreactive "passion" that Cheeseburger brings to the table, this discussion is important because (i) it (hopefully) gives you all a better sense of who I am and what I believe vis-a-vis those aspects of Christianity that you dislike, distrust or downright abhor, and (ii) as a result, it (hopefully) provides an opportunity for you to find ways and reasons to modify some of your anti-Christian feelings.  As I've said before, not every Christian is a member of the "Christian Right," and thus lumping all Christians into one pot is both inaccurate and unfair.  Even if a majority of Christians are either "conservative" or "sheep," there is still a large number of Christians who "see through" the errors, and are saddened by the "sheep," and find the so-called "Christian Right" as distasteful as non-Christians and non-believers.

    Peace.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: richard haase 
      To: mb-civic at islandemail.com 
      Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:40 AM
      Subject: [Mb-civic] COME ON GUYS

      THERES ROOM FOR BOTH HAIR AND JESUS HONESTLY
      ALSO MR KORDA THE PROBLEM ISNT IAN
      WHOS A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND WELL MEANING
      BUT THE HORRIBLE EVIL PEOPLE WHO PERVERT
      RELIGION WITHIN ITS MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS
      REMEMBER IT DOES SAY MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME
      BUT ALSO IN FAIRNESS TO ORGANIZED RELIGION IT DID GIVE US SOME OF OUR GREATEST ART
      THE RENAISSANCE
      ITS NOT ALL BLACK AND WHITE
      AND THE PROBLEM IS THE POPE
      NOT IAN
      ALSO PLEASE REMEMBER
      BLACK CHURCH ROCKS
      YOU GO TO A GOOD BLACK CHURCH
      AND YOU WILL MEET JESUS THERE
      I PROMISE
      THATS WHERE I FOUND JESUS
      AND IM A BIG HIPPIE OR WANNA BE
      THEY WERE ALL DEAD BY MY EIGHTEENTH BIRTHDAY 
      JUST KIDDING LOL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      Mb-civic mailing list
      Mb-civic at islandlists.com
      http://www.islandlists.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mb-civic

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    Mb-civic mailing list
    Mb-civic at islandlists.com
    http://www.islandlists.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mb-civic

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  Mb-civic mailing list
  Mb-civic at islandlists.com
  http://www.islandlists.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mb-civic
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.islandlists.com/pipermail/mb-civic/attachments/20041102/89388418/attachment.htm