[Mb-civic] religion

[Robin McNamara]

Ian

Wonderfully said, but please know that I do not hold any anger or frutration
toward you or anyone for what they believe, my only concern is that others
will 'predict' my fate for not believing their way. I sincerely could care
less about others beliefs and not in the game of trying to "save" others
toward my way or anyway, I truely respesct anyone who believes in God or who
doesn't believe that is their on own personal judgement. Also know that I
consider myself a "true believer" of God, when I look at beautiful sunsets,
the trees ,the birds the clouds then I know there must be a higher spiritual
force at play my faith is my rock of survival, even though I lose it my way
every now & then just like everyone else. I do beleve in Jesus,but also
Budda etc.& all other loving Gods, if I am going to hell for believing this
way than I never should have believed in the first place. Of all the
interpretations of God there must be one God that represents all the
interpretations that is who I pray to.

Peace to you brother
Robin




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian" <ialterman at nyc.rr.com>
To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] religion


> Cheeseburger, Robin, Richard et al:
>
> Since Civic is primarily a political site, I suspect that this discussion
> has already gone on longer than Michael (or anyone else, for that matter)
> would like.  Thus - and without "stifling dissent" or any further
> commentary - I would like to make what amounts to a "closing statement,"
> which sums up my feelings.
>
> I completely understand the various levels of disdain that some of you
have
> for "organized religions," especially when it is used for purposes other
> than those intended by their founders or spiritual leaders, all of whom
> (with the possible exception of Mohammed - but even this is not clear)
were
> peace-loving, compassionate, well-intentioned (I hate that phrase...)
> people.
>
> And as noted in my e-mails, I do not disagree that almost all religions
> have, to one degree or another - and sometimes to a dangerously large
> degree - been "hijacked" by leaders with less-than-honorable motives and
> intentions, from simple self-preservation to outright corruption.  I
believe
> I have made my case against mainstream Christianity - both Catholic and
> Protestant - clear and unmistakable.
>
> As Cheeseburger notes, however, there are still some "true Christians"
(the
> very term I use) who do follow the "essence" of what Christianity was
meant
> to be (as opposed to what it has largely become): who live, or try to
live,
> truly Christ-like lives; who see through and reject (much of) the
leadership
> of the mainstream, as well as the so-called "Christian Right"; who do not
> engage in judgment or condemnation; who do not try to ram their faith down
> anyone else's throat (though they may "offer" the Word to others in a
> loving, patient and humble way) or to change the politico-economic system
to
> serve Scriptural ends (i.e., who believe in the separationof church and
> state); and who basically "get" what Jesus was, did, said and meant.
>
> I also cannot disagree that, unfortunately, the "true Christians" among us
> are a small group compared to: those who cannot or will not see that they
> are being misled by their leaders; those who are simply "lemmings"
> (actually, I suppose the terminology would be "sheep") who don't know any
> better, and follow blindly; and those who consciously and willfully use
> Scripture to serve narrow views that are unloving, unforgiving and
> ultimately un-Christian.
>
> However, this is the very heart of my position.  While all of you - from
the
> most "virulent" to the most understanding - certainly have cause to be
> "angry" with mainstream and "majority" Christianity vis-a-vis both its
> hijacking of the spiritual essence of the faith and its temporal attempts
to
> remove the separation of church and state and impose a quasi-theocracy, it
> seems to me that you would serve the discourse (and your individual
> relationships with people) better by channeling your anger and frustration
> into loving and patient explanation and "re-teaching" those who either
> "don't get it" or willfully ignore "it."
>
> That is, when you posit arguments with a "broad brush," you ignore - and
> hurt - the "true Christians" who are "listening," because (as I've said ad
> nauseum) you simply lump ALL Christians into a neat little box labeled
> "conservative, break-down-the-wall-between-church-and-state,
> you're-all-going-to-hell believers."  And even if the number of "true
> Christians" is only 10% (though I believe it's probably larger), you
> alienate those people by making sweeping generalizations about
Christianity.
>
> Needless to say, not all of you have the expertise or knowledge to
undertake
> such "re-teaching."  However, it is clear to me that even the most
virulent
> among you "see" some of the obvious non- and un-Christian practices of the
> majority of Christians, simply from a basic understanding of Jesus' life
and
> ministry.  It is not a matter of arguing "theology" - since, as noted, not
> all of you have the requisite knowledge to do so - but rather to point out
> the most obvious "hypocrisies" in the lives of so many who call themselves
> "Christians."  This can be done no matter how little Scriptural knowledge
> one has; it is ultimately "common sense" based on what all of you seem to
> understand about Christianity and what it was "intended" to be - at least
> with respect to how Christians are called to conduct themselves as people
> (i.e., separate and apart from issues like sin, grace, repentance and
"final
> judgment").
>
> As long as there are "true Christians" out there (and, as noted, I believe
> they are greater in number than most people think, though they are
> admittedly "overwhelmed" by mainstream Christians), taking "broad brush"
and
> generalized positions would seem simply to continue the "vicious cycle" of
> an "us vs. them" mentality, and does little to serve the discourse.
>
> You are entitled to your anger and frustration.  But don't you think that
> channeling that anger and frustration into rational and reasonable
> discourse - including, where necessary, correction - is a better approach
> than simply continuing the inflammatory cycle of mutual disdain?  Indeed,
> even if "true Christians" are a small percentage of Christians, the
> so-called "Christian Right" (conservative Christians) is also a minority.
> In this regard, the vast majority - the lemmings, the lost, etc. - would
> seem to deserve your pity and sympathy (and, of course, correction) rather
> than your disdain.
>
> I am not saying you should simply accept the "status quo," and not "take
on"
> the conservative Christian movement at every politico-economic turn.  I am
> saying that it would serve YOU better - as reasonable, intelligent
people -
> to avoid sweeping generalizations, to offer clear and rational correction
> (based on whatever understanding you have) to the "lost" majority, and,
most
> importantly, to ENGAGE those Christians who would side with you if you did
> not lump them together with all the others.
>
> Peace.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cheeseburger" <maxfury at granderiver.net>
> To: <mb-civic at islandlists.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 4:22 AM
> Subject: [Mb-civic] religion
>
>
> > Re:  religion
> >
> >
> > Ian wrote:
> >
> > ====
> > Within your "diatribe," you make some very good points.
> > ====
> >
> >
> > "Uncle Cheeseburger...........!!"
> >
> > "Yes, kids....."
> >
> > "What's a 'diatribe', Uncle Cheeseburger......?"
> >
> > "It's one of the lost tribes of HAIR...."
> >
> > "Oh.....  Ok......"
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Yet I don't hear American Christians talking about how a much larger
> number
> > of leaders have "hijacked" Christianity to serve narrow, unloving,
> > unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian (if not usually violent) views.
> > =====
> >
> > They are unfortunate victims/prisoners of their own Faith.  Manipulated
by
> > "The Top" so well.  They are either blind sheep or simply cannot bring
> > themselves to break from The Lies with a clear conscience without
> > "betraying their leadership" which is "surely appointed by God himself
or
> > they would not possess such power within such a holy structure".  It's
> kind
> > of like "The Thin Blue Line" that police use to hold "their own"
"intact"
> > as an "inseparable unit", even as injustices, crimes, and murders are
> > committed by those within their ranks.
> >
> > If they have "ultimate faith" in their God, then they must automatically
> > have "ultimate faith" in their "Leaders", no matter how rotten,
> destructive
> > or murderous, as it remains a very central part of their "dogma of
faith"
> > that God himself would not put charlatans, tyrants, ruthless men and
> women,
> > and murderers in positions of authority over =His Holy Vessel=, the
> Church,
> > here on Earth.
> >
> > (Even though "the scriptures" themselves historically document it time
> > after time, and predict it...")
> >
> > This is their simple undoing.  And the resultant catastrophe for the
rest
> > of us in the midst of their "Leaders'" rush up "The Road To Glory" which
> > apparently tramples everything within its path.
> >
> > It is simply just *much* too horrible for them to believe that they have
> > been misled.  That they have unwittingly "Partaken Of The Sins" of their
> > "Own People At The Top" and have been diligently practicing their Faith
> > within a structure of Lies themselves created by people they "revere"
and
> > "trust".  It is insurmountable insanity for them to even conceive of
their
> > "Leaders" doing such things, much less that they themselves have drank
> from
> > the cup.
> >
> > So they don't.
> >
> > And such are "the sheep of God" led so disastrously astray like lemmings
> to
> > their own destruction.
> >
> > With all the rest of us in tow.
> >
> >
> >
> > =======
> > You also note the "good samaritan" - as you point out, a critical
example
> > that was kept in Scripture for a reason.
> >
> > You also note the incident in which someone was casting out demons in
> > Jesus' name, but was not a disciple.  This passage is worth quoting:
"Now
> > John answered Him, saying 'Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow
us
> > casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not
> > follow us.'  But Jesus said, 'Do not forbid him, for no one who works a
> > miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.  For he who is
not
> > against us is on our side."  Mark 9:38-40.
> >
> > Finally, I want to paraphrase you at length because, again, you are so
> > correct and it warrants repeating: "No matter how you slice it,
mainstream
> > Christianity has so very long to go to ever even approach catching up to
> > Jesus Himself, much less His actual teachings.  And they're so busy
> > condemning everyone but themselves that they have absolutely no time
left
> to
> > look into it.  And they sit in the front pew every Sunday morning and
> > profess their piety, purity and charity."
> >
> > Bravo!  I could not have put it better myself.
> >
> > Peace.
> > =========
> >
> >
> > Now, if someone could only figure out a way to actually save all those
> > people blindly following all these "False Prophets" who are leading
them,
> > and the rest of us as a result, to the "precipices of Hell", that would
> > certainly be an accomplishment.
> >
> > Such thoughts and speech are currently, as they always have been,
branded
> > as "Heresy" "Words from the Devil" and "Grounds for Excommunication"
"Etc"
> > by those at "The Top" who misguide and manipulate the Masses for their
own
> > personal reasons and profit.
> >
> > It is not necessarily anymore, as in that movie "The Usual Suspects"
that
> > "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that
he
> > didn't exist", but rather that the minions of Hell itself now run
> > "Organized Religion" across the globe, for the most part, and point to
> > anyone who dares oppose them and shout "Witch...!!", and the
lemming-sheep
> > automatically begin to softly chant "Burn, witch, burn....  Burn, witch,
> > burn..." until they build to a symphonic crescendo that Heaven never
> > dreamed of scoring.
> >
> > To help people like that, who it's now rather over-obvious that they
could
> > use a little help, is almost impossible.
> >
> > Almost.
> >
> >
> > Cheeseburger
> >
> > - Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.
> >
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