[Mb-civic] religion
Ian
ialterman at nyc.rr.com
Thu Aug 19 08:29:33 PDT 2004
Robin:
I can only ask: where did that come from? Can you point to a single time that any of my responses came from a place other than love, humility, forgiveness, and acceptance? Have you ever "heard" hatred, disdain, mockery, arrogance or conceit come from me?
Yes, I believe that Judeo-Christianity is the "correct" faith. And I take my positions and debate others from that perspective. But I have never shown non-acceptance of others or their beliefs. Indeed, I believe I have made it quite clear that such non-acceptance - arrogance, conceit, disdain - is the "purview" of the so-called "religious right" (and most "conservative" Christians), to which I most assuredly do not belong.
Your comment - coming out of the blue as it does - seems to belie your own deep-seated feelings of disdain for anything even tangentially "religious." Indeed, it was almost surreal reading your response immediately after Mary Louise's, in which she comments on my "kindness and sensitivity." Michael as well has made a few comments over time about the unique (or at least very different) way in which I "handle" the subjects of faith and religion - especially given that I am a minister, and could easily fall into the trap of being smug and non-accepting were I other than I am.
I may not agree with them and I may not condone them, but I accept everyone and every philosophy/religion/faith. Again, I may posit my points from the perspective of the "Judeo-Christian construct," but I have never sought to "force" my faith on anyone, or shown "disdain" or non-acceptance for anyone else's position.
Perhaps you need to look inside yourself for where your comment came from. Because, at the risk of seeming to lack humility, it clearly does not apply to me.
Peace.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin McNamara
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] religion
Ian
I have said this to you before I respect your beliefs & your version of God but with your 'philosophy' the problem is that you have no respect for other faiths & or ways of believing because you believe if mankind doesn't follow your way of believing than you are condemmed to hell, which is ludicrous.
Peace
Robin
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian
To: mb-civic at islandlists.com
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Mb-civic] religion
Madbaker:
You misconstrue my meaning. In referring to the Old Testament, I was not inferring that the Jewish religion is "all old fashioned and wrong," either per se or vis-a-vis other religions. I was simply pointing out that all of Harris' examples were from the Old Testament, and thus he was ignoring the New Testament entirely - because had he not done so, he would have had to admit that a vast majority of its passages gainsay his argument and his lumping of all Christians (indeed, all Judeo-Christians) into a neat little box with the words "conservative zealot."
As for your comment that you find it "boggling" that "in the 21st century we have large groups of human beings who put their trust in these books": it is my very trust in these books that makes me who I am; it is my very belief in Christ, His ministry and His sacrifice that lead me to live a "Christ-like" life guided by love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness and service. If you want to take issue with the fact that so many Christians are either unable or unwilling to do so, you will find no disagreement from me. However, to simply apply a "broad brush" to Christianity as you do provides absolutely nowhere to go re any positive discourse, and thus only inflames and exacerbates the entire issue.
Finally, you state that "the majority of the top scientists" believe "that the universe was created by a big bang." I have two comments. First, since that theory is as unprovable as the notion of God's "creation" of the universe in six days, what exactly are you basing your "faith" in that theory on? If science is your God, then at worst you and I simply believe in different gods (though I am not suggesting that I believe in the "six days" concept; I am of the belief that the two theories "overlap," but that we (humans) simply haven't found the "common element" yet).
Second, it might surprise you to know that more than half of the "top" scientists in the world are people of faith; i.e., they believe in God. That is an undisputed, statistical fact. As an aside, let's not forget that Einstein was a believer (and it was not simply his offhand comment that "God does not play dice with the universe"), and that Darwin was a minister before he became a naturalist - and, according to many accounts, went back to his faith in his later life, after admitting that his theory of evolution did not account for everything. Keppler was a deacon, and remained a committed Catholic his entire life, despite his treatment by the Catholic Church. Indeed, almost every scientist in our high school and college textbooks - from Leeouwenhouk to Pasteur, from Newton to Galileo - was a practicing Christian. In this regard, science and religion are neither mutually exclusive nor antithetical.
The personal historical data in your e-mail shows where your intense bias and prejudice against - indeed, it would seem, hatred for - anything that even smells of "religion" comes from. And that visceral hatred would seem to make it impossible for you to discuss the subject rationally. This saddens me, and I can only pray that one day you will be able to break through that deep-seated hatred and, if not find peace in God, then at least be able to deal with the concept of faith with a little more acceptance and humility.
Peace.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ginger Baker
To: Michael Butler
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:01 PM
Subject: [Mb-civic] religion
bear
......i must take issue with your writer ian for his criticism of the harris piece on religion....let's face one simple fact..all religions are basically money making organisations feeding on humanities fear of death...and i do mean ALL religions..harris is quite correct in stating that the bible was written by men who believed the world was flat whether it be the new testament or the old testament...ian by his reference to the old testament is saying that the jewish religion is all old fashioned and wrong [like islam which is the most modern of the three in question]..the qoran was also written by men who believed the world to be flat....i find it mind boggling that in the 21st century we have large groups of human beings putting their trust in these books....as i have stated before all these "holy" books were written by men...NOT god....over fifty years ago i went to a top grammar school because, to everyones amazement it was discovered that i had a brain!! at aged 11 i inquired of the scripture teacher if it was true that jesus was a jewish bastard....i was marched to the head masters study by a purple faced near apoplectic teacher and told to repeat my question which i did...the head master went even purpler than the teacher...."where do you get this nonsense, boy?" i replied truthfully "my mum"....i suspect the beak actually spoke to my mum who gave him very short shrift and i was excused scipture lessons for the rest of my time at the school [5 years]...my mum considered religion as simply "cant"...and so do i....ah well if we still have people actually believing in the immaculate conception and that jesus was the son of god there is little hope for the world...goodness we even have the majority of the worlds top scientists believing that the universe was created by a big bang...no doubt it was god in heaven playing with his chemistry set...madbaker
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